Philosophy Now Forum

Of course, if we do have a massive campaign to 'go green', to convert to alternative energy as if we mean business, it will mean lots of jobs
Here is a link listing some of the possibilities, for example: http://www.sebane.org/yellow-pages.html
Also see http://www.seia.org

The new job openings will in turn stimulate the economy, which will keep the wheels turning, and which will have all kinds of beneficial side-effects. We will be able to build up a Middle Class again in the USA, and as a result the huge imbalance in wealth will be softened a little; social mobility upward could return - which is what America was noted for - and the suffering that chronic unemployment causes will be relieved. Once again children will do better economically than their parents had, and the decline of the empire may be reversed. The nation will make a comeback. But we must work for this to happen. We must lobby for the governments, state and federal, to offer subsidies for start-up businesses in this field ...to get the whole thing rolling.

I especially like how a solar company called PV-Squared is organized. It is a workers cooperative.
See http://pvsquared.coop/

The rest of the world is ahead of us in these areas.
See the video presenting a persuasive, well-argued talk by Jeremy Rifkin as to why converting over immediately is a rational policy: http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/ThirdI

prof wrote:Greetings, Tesla

You write: "So what do I believe takes priority? Principle or policy? Neither. Both have equal relevance. But neither have very good definitions. Let’s first do some defining as a nation, a whole voice, not the few, and then with that knowledge let's write good policy."

I argue that if we don't have in our consciousness good moral principles - if we don't know our Ethics - we will not likely create good policy If we want the best policies to come out of our officials, they must have a sense of ethics, that is to say, they must care about people. How we teach them ethics is a problem, but it is do-able.

I suggested we elect only those who already live as though they are persons of character and integrity; who will show devotion to work for a (morally)-better world. It is true, as you mentioned, that some have good acting ability, and can pretend, convincingly, that they are genuinely highly-moral. I believe, though, that the truly authentic can (like a child can) see through phoniness, can detect insincerity. And can, so far, make their findings widely-known, can expose the pretender. ...shine a light on it.

You cannot get to there from here. Another words: when voting is dependent on an ignorant public and intentionally misleading vote techniques are implemented by law of those who make the laws: there can only be one outcome. A choice of voting for a candidate the powers that be will allow. That must be addressed first. I'm not arguing against being moral, not saying it is not important: I'm pointing out the rulers are corrupt, and the policy writers are corrupt, and so unless you benefit the system you cannot help the system, and benefiting the system means supporting the vision of the current immoral powers. They will not endorse morality, and the moral are punished for their morality. Just be in a position of need and approach a state funded system for support and you will learn fast that very few honest people will find aid. Law is the same. Politics are the same. So while your argument to be moral is right: the system you want to bring morality into will not accept it. And so policy must first be addressed to allow morality and ethics to flourish. And that means: police the higher laws of Life Liberty, and Pursuit of happiness. Which right now: is not policed or addressed. Only the "thou shalt not" is policed, and only because it adds money to do so.

You feel strongly that we had better get busy on doing something about Climate Change, or that (as David Roberts teaches in his TED lecture) by 2015 the damage done will be irreversible and the third rock from the Sun - Earth - will start seeming to resemble planet Mercury, as far as temperature measurement. [And I, for one, respect your views on that !!]

Our species - due to accelerating climate trends by then out of human control - will not be able to tolerate the conditions; we won't find a place to grow the food we like, and we want to eat, due to widespread drought. Even now, today, our corn crop is miserable as a result of drought. The temperature is going to climb to make Hell on Earth, literally. This entails policy changes: reducing drastically greenhouse gas emissions. We MUST stop releasing carbon into our atmosphere as of yesterday. Every time we drive a car that uses gasoline we are contributing to the problem .

So solving this problem is "making the impossible possible" and that is always fun. It's like beating the casino (out of a little money.) IT CAN BE DONE. But first we have to care.

That's where Ethics comes in. It needs to be made part of the curriculum - at every grade level, from primary to college.

That is my prescription.

The Evil here is I have a clean energy solution that is very good, if not the best option on the planet, and I cannot get funding. Like I said: it can be done, but it sacrifices the oil economy: and no one wants to do that. Ethics do come in, but whose ethics? The leadership will not choose an ethic against their position. And neither will anyone else. Will it take failure before ethics will be seen as wise? Perhaps, but then: see what is lost? Our planet and the species’ future. You cannot combat poor ethics when policy overrides ethics. Policy therefore: enables ethics. And so they have equal importance.

My essays, which you "haven't the time nor patience to read, are full of emphasis on sustainability, on the necessity to go green, on the need to switch over to renewable energy and on the hidden cost of fossil fuel that is not reckoned into our present-day cost-benefit analyses. I was a friend of Bucky Fuller. {He even introduced me to his lovely granddaughter as a possible prospect to court her ! He wanted to be a matchmaker.} In his masterpiece of a book, CRITICAL PATH, he devotes chapters to the true costs of coal, and of petroleum, that we mine and utilize for our source of energy. We have only been kidding ourselves that it is "cheap." Far from it !!!

They're messy, very egotistically written. You need to keep the reader in mind. A sentence is worth a million ideas, or it is a waste of paper to write. Pick your audience and write for them. The substance of your essays should be clear on your mind, and each point should be available in your memory to argue in real time, and improve the essays from what is learned in argument. No one wants to read a paper and go: oh it all makes sense now. I found myself wanting to argue paragraph to paragraph. If I reject one point, all points built on it are useless. Not that I necessarily dislike your works, I prefer to discuss so I can address each point honestly and more in depth, than trying to argue two hundred points at once.
Also keep in mind that my opinion is my own, and it is a reflection of much ignorance. But also remember: everyone else has that same fault, including you. Through our lens we see only, and despite all attempts to be fair and objective, subjectivity will never be erased.

Yes, working on Climate Change is most important.

But only if we have a sense of real ethics would we be motivated to get going on it.

So Ethics education takes priority.

I have spoken.

[/quote]

Right. So the task at hand is to have everyone 'CARE'. So again: what is the 'most important thing' that society will agree on that appeals to their egotistical natures? (The house is on fire fool!) And who will look? That starts with you first asking yourself, and with all honesty: What is YOUR most important thing? Because to convince everyone else; you will have to convince yourself. And that will take an immense argument. From experience I've found that I cannot even get a discussion, much less a convincing argument. So if I know what people can agree on is 'most important' then together that crowd can work together utilizing the right argument. So I want the right argument, and to find it, I need a little help.

Good sir: What is the 'Most Important' thing?

What is the 'Most Important' thing?

A quality life. Well being for me, and for everyone who supports me ...which is all of you - which is everyone in the world, for we all have a contribution to make. {Even including the abnormal, the corrupt, and those with a criminal mind.} We are all hypocrites (in the sense that we don't always manage to live up to our highest ideals) but some of us are much more egregious hypocrites than others - such as John Boener, Max Baucus, and Paul Ryan.

You say, Tesla, that you can't get financial support for your green-energy project. I know someone, in Knoxville, who can match you up with venture capitalists. Of course you will have to convince the v.c. that your project is worth investing in, perhaps by showing a prototype you have built, and a good business plan. If you are unskilled in those two areas, I know a guy who can guide you in writing up an efficient business plan. I could ask him to get involved; he's in Pennsylvania. Both of my contacts see the value in green energy advancement. They both happen to be Value-scientists.

I venture to guess that some philosophy student, here, with a gift for building models, could aid you in constructing a prototype - and would volunteer for that. The v.c. - and probably the student - would likely want a share in the new start-up company.

If your project is a good one, it could result in much value creation. And that's what Ethics is all about.

You would have learned that if only you had read the Unified Theory. [See the chapter, "Adding Value is what it's all about."]

p.s. My essays and papers were mostly designed for philosophers and/or students of Philosophy. That's why they have technicalities and employ (intensional) logic. I would like someone like Alonzo Church to give me a hand with making the theory even more formal than it is. That would then limit the size of the audience even further - but should make the empirical import more powerful. [His Higher-Order logics did wonders for Theory of Computers. Some have argued that the human brain is a type of computer.

And it is condescending for us to call people 'ignorant.' They are just informed in areas that are not meaningful to you. ...such as spectator sports, perhaps.

You said you wanted to argue with every sentence in a paper I wrote. Well, that can be arranged if you give me a phonecall. Where are you located, anyway? I'm in Chicago.

And while every argues.

Schools continue to be [devolved] to the basic British idea of the public school.. "teach the peasants how to run the machinery of state. "
Back in the early 1800's it was to run the machinery of the industrial revolution.
Now its to run windows apps and "work as a team" under some backstabbing idiot.
spreadsheets and data input.. The horror of bureaucracy.
I have been offered many times a job as 'leader' teams and departments.
And people call me crazy cause i dont want to be
"another brick in the wall"

The only freedom we really have is to work shit out for ourselves


PS. Principles create policies. Answer is principles

.


I don't think you're crazy.


That was a GREAT post.



Painfully true.





.

Bill

I just read the 10 posts before this and said [to myself] "I WISH LIST"
There were some great ideas.

The kids are the answer.
In australia history. As taught in schools is about to go under. Already ancient and modern.. Art.. all gone.. Aus history survives purely so the
kids can celebrate ANZAC day. When the Empire threw away the Anzac corps like cheap buffer to war with ottomans.

In 10 years NO history will be taught as part of curriculum.
already 9 of 10 aussie kids cant point to iraq on map.

You dont need that shit to run windows spreadsheets.
An ignorant population is far easier to control than an an informed one.
Government conspiracy?
GOVERNMENT is a conspiracy.

Freedom. The only real freedom you have is to work shit out for yourself.

prof wrote:What is the 'Most Important' thing?

A quality life. Well being for me, and for everyone who supports me ...which is all of you - which is everyone in the world, for we all have a contribution to make. Even including the abnormal, the corrupt, and those with a criminal mind. We are all hypocrites (in the sense that we don't always manage to live up to our highest ideals) but some of us are much more egregious hypocrites than others - such as John Boener, Max Baucus, and Paul Ryan.

well, what I'm looking to do is have everyone agree that species survival becomes the most important thing when the chance of a destroyed planet by our pollution and overpopulation is on the horizon. yet the issues are not at the forefront of politics, global or local here. No one nation can fix it alone, and the time frame for a wise society that will cooperate and agree on ethics and law and economy--globally--is not going to be in time by all evidence I've seen. what would you sacrifice for species survival?

You say, Tesla, that you can't get financial support for your green-energy project. I know someone, in Knoxville, who can match you up with venture capitalists. Of course you will have to convince the v.c. that your project is worth investing in, perhaps by showing a prototype you have built, and a good business plan. If you are unskilled in those two areas, I know a guy who can guide you in writing up an efficient business plan. I could ask him to get involved; he's in Pennsylvania. Both of my contacts see the value in green energy advancement. They both happen to be Value-scientists.

I venture to guess that some philosophy student, here, with a gift for building models, could aid you in constructing a prototype - and would volunteer for that. The v.c. - and probably the student - would likely want a share in the new start-up company.

If your project is a good one, it could result in much value creation. And that's what Ethics is all about.

The first step is going to be research. I do not have access to the information I need, and due to complexity the over-all design will require a team of engineers brainstorming researching and doing math to validate my findings. it is not a company dynamic as much as it is a technological upgrade to existing systems. e-mail me at jbrown111@my.apsu.edu for more information.

And it is condescending for us to call people 'ignorant.' They are just informed in areas that are not meaningful to you. ...such as spectator sports, perhaps.

interesting. what does it say of an individual who finishes a point with " I have spoken" ? indeed we are all ignorant. but it is not condescending to point out ignorance if you are an individual who delights in someone pointing out your ignorance. if a pertinent ignorance of mine is found, I can grow. But I cannot know all, and I must choose what to retain. as much as I'd love to learn the etymology of every word expressed, I don't have time or room for such knowledge. but what I do know o language should be enough to work out important issues and effectively communicate to almost all others.

You said you wanted to argue with every sentence in a paper I wrote. Well, that can be arranged if you give me a phonecall. Where are you located, anyway? I'm in Chicago.

you misread. I said I would argue the points one by one as they came up. You have enough knowledge to be aware of the danger of arrogance. your a little narcissistic in your methods and approach to argument. however you do not mind actually answering questions when asked, and that is encouraging to me that we may discover something through discussion. I'm in Tennessee. I'll have to hold off for now on the phone conversation. I'm in my final semester and going through a custody battle, and I do not have time for work for another two weeks.

"you misread. I said I would argue the points one by one as they came up. You have enough knowledge to be aware of the danger of arrogance. your a little narcissistic in your methods and approach to argument. however you do not mind actually answering questions when asked, and that is encouraging to me that we may discover something through discussion. I'm in Tennessee. I'll have to hold off for now on the phone conversation. I'm in my final semester and going through a custody battle, and I do not have time for work for another two weeks."
________________________________________________________________

Nikola
Here we diverge.
Arrogance or arrogation is not a dirty word.
In objective it is fact.
In emotion is where the trouble begins.
"You arrogant bastard"
how many times i have heard that?
from day i decided to never lie again.

many here would call me such an arrogant bastard.

my reply is. 'and i can play chess.'

prill

Hjarloprillar wrote:"you misread. I said I would argue the points one by one as they came up. You have enough knowledge to be aware of the danger of arrogance. your a little narcissistic in your methods and approach to argument. however you do not mind actually answering questions when asked, and that is encouraging to me that we may discover something through discussion. I'm in Tennessee. I'll have to hold off for now on the phone conversation. I'm in my final semester and going through a custody battle, and I do not have time for work for another two weeks."
________________________________________________________________

Nikola
Here we diverge.
Arrogance or arrogation is not a dirty word.
In objective it is fact.
In emotion is where the trouble begins.
"You arrogant bastard"
how many times i have heard that?
from day i decided to never lie again.

many here would call me such an arrogant bastard.

my reply is. 'and i can play chess.'

prill

“You never really learn much from hearing yourself speak.”
― George Clooney

“The fundamental cause of trouble in the world is that the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt.”
― Bertrand Russell, Mortals and Others 1: American Essays 1931-35

Arabian Proverb said: "Arrogance diminishes wisdom"

The greater problem with arrogance is the stopping of learning that is associated with it when it is due to intellectual power or knowledge. in truth, we all know that none of us know everything, but some will go as far as to believe they know everything simply because they admit they do not know everything. it's a sleeping danger because with anyone who is great or knowledgeable in their field, they settle for being a good expert, instead of a great one.

Readers will note upon re-reading the original post that I kept myself out of it, for the most part.

Toward the end of it I told where one could find a list of principles derived from the theory. How many folks actually looked them up?

If one was busy being an activist for a cause 'worth living for, even dying for' then that party is excused from the reading assignment. Can we turn this nation into a democracy? Perhaps we can by Dr. William J. Kelleher's suggestion that we use internet voting on issues. The encryption for security exists; banks and brokerages use it every day. See his arguments in this book:
http://www.amazon.com/Internet-Voting-H ... m+Kelleher

let's make it a democracy

3 men, 2 women... let's vote... men vote to rape the women... 3 to 2... 3 wins!

that's democracy

arm yourself before the "majority" vote democratically to rape you and steal your stuff in the name of progress.

-Imp

Impenitent wrote:let's make it a democracy

3 men, 2 women... let's vote... men vote to rape the women... 3 to 2... 3 wins!

that's democracy

arm yourself before the "majority" vote democratically to rape you and steal your stuff in the name of progress.

-Imp

Yes...by all mean...democracy means only more regulation! Let's deregulate like Texas...after all, people will do the right thing and make sure the safety of people is a # 1 priority!

http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/18/us/texas- ... index.html

Impenitent wrote:let's make it a democracy
...arm yourself before the "majority" vote democratically to rape you and steal your stuff in the name of progress.
-Imp

------I didn't know that rape (or stealing) was one of the issues on the ballot. The site that puts things up for a vote is sophisticated and is run by people with some maturity. They behave responsibly.

Here is a book with a creative suggestion as to how to make democracy work in our true self-interest:
http://www.amazon.com/Empowering-Public ... ewpoints=1


impenitent,

Why are you so fearful? Have you been hurt lately? Tell us about it. Maybe we can help. Seriously.


"Arm yourself"??!!!?
Would anyone here really like to be on a bus on which all the passengers were carrying concealed guns? If someone on that bus were to brush up against another passenger - an individual who is feeling irritable that day - who expresses some gruff aggressive-sounding remark, and then everyone makes a "fast draw" at that point. What is the likely result?


...Showdown at the o.k. corral.

prof wrote:

Impenitent wrote:let's make it a democracy
...arm yourself before the "majority" vote democratically to rape you and steal your stuff in the name of progress.
-Imp

------I didn't know that rape (or stealing) was one of the issues on the ballot. The site that puts things up for a vote is sophisticated and is run by people with some maturity. They behave responsibly.


no, they are humans. they behave like humans. history never repeats.




Here is a book with a creative suggestion as to how to make democracy work in our true self-interest:
http://www.amazon.com/Empowering-Public ... ewpoints=1


impenitent,

Why are you so fearful? Have you been hurt lately? Tell us about it. Maybe we can help. Seriously.


"Arm yourself"??!!!?
Would anyone here really like to be on a bus on which all the passengers were carrying concealed guns? If someone on that bus were to brush up against another passenger - an individual who is feeling irritable that day - who expresses some gruff aggressive-sounding remark, and then everyone makes a "fast draw" at that point. What is the likely result?


...Showdown at the o.k. corral.

you obviously have never been in Israel...

-Imp

Impenitent wrote: ...history never repeats.
-Imp

If you say so.....


It seems that you don't trust the democratic process.

Also, you want to keep the representative system of government because Congress is doing such a great job.

Earlier you 'put down' progressives. They want progress. Is it safe to infer that you want none?

Also you are conflating the diverse attitudes of people in any large city in the USA, who may ride in the same bus, with the Israelis - a people who as kids sing the praises of the sentiment in the Psalm: Hiney Matov U Ma Nayim Shevet Ahkim Gam Yahad, which translated affirms the values of Unity and of Cooperation. They long for Peace. They remind each other of that whenever they say hello.

Is that true of the people here??