Philosophy Now Forum

The Voice of Time wrote:
Do you think it is so bad to have the ability to choose somebody to fight for you where you yourself are at a disadvantage?

that was not my question

my question was about whether or not forced union membership - ie no right to work - is justified

The Voice of Time wrote:

bobevenson wrote: Again, the free market didn't generate unions, oppressive socialist governments did. I don't understand why you can't get that through your thick skull.

Unions have existed quite long. They originated through socialist movements yes, because it is a socialist phenomena to run collective bargaining, the strength of the masses, instead of the ability of a few individuals to exploit weaknesses in others.

Do you think it is so bad to have the ability to choose somebody to fight for you where you yourself are at a disadvantage?

The free market does not involve fighting at all, it involves people making mutually beneficial agreements on buying and selling without somebody kicking them in the balls.

Kayla wrote:

The Voice of Time wrote:unless you yourself is some really hard-core guy at bargaining then unions are quite beneficial all over, both in terms of working hours, working conditions and wages

if they are so beneficial why is membership mandatory?

is it? don't know about that, never heard of it in my country, though unions are very powerful and very influential here

bobevenson wrote: The free market does not involve fighting at all, it involves people making mutually beneficial agreements on buying and selling without somebody kicking them in the balls.

which world are you living in? besides "fighting" wasn't meant as "physical fighting", though that may be necessary if things are bad enough and words don't make progress

Kayla wrote:
that was not my question

my question was about whether or not forced union membership - ie no right to work - is justified

was talking to bob

The Voice of Time wrote: is it? don't know about that, never heard of it in my country, though unions are very powerful and very influential here

here it varies by state

here in texas it is not mandatory

in most northern states it is mandatory - if your employer is unionized then membership is condition of employment

unions certainly want to make membership mandatory is places where it is not - and will fight to keep union membership mandatory in places where it is


this may be different in Sweden

so you are saying that if your coworkers form a union you dont have to join one and if you get a job in a unionized place you dont have to join a union?

The Voice of Time wrote:

bobevenson wrote: The free market does not involve fighting at all, it involves people making mutually beneficial agreements on buying and selling without somebody kicking them in the balls.

which world are you living in? besides "fighting" wasn't meant as "physical fighting", though that may be necessary if things are bad enough and words don't make progress

I'm sorry, but the activities of unions is like kicking employers in the balls, and in the case of Hostess Twinkies, they got kicked right back, thank God!

bobevenson wrote:I'm sorry, but the activities of unions is like kicking employers in the balls, and in the case of Hostess Twinkies, they got kicked right back, thank God!

it was the executives who destroyed twinkies not unions

the executives kept giving themselves huge bonuses - dipping into the employees pension fund as needed - even as the company was losing money

that is what killed twinkies not unions

Kayla wrote:

bobevenson wrote:I'm sorry, but the activities of unions is like kicking employers in the balls, and in the case of Hostess Twinkies, they got kicked right back, thank God!

it was the executives who destroyed twinkies not unions

the executives kept giving themselves huge bonuses - dipping into the employees pension fund as needed - even as the company was losing money

that is what killed twinkies not unions

The unions killed Hostess Twinkies pure and simple, honey, by rejecting the employer's final offer before going out of business. I just hope it puts another nail in the coffin of unionism. And I hope those stupid union workers never find another job and have to go on welfare due to the policies of their socialistic government that is ultimately responsible for their demise.

bobevenson wrote:

chaz wyman wrote:

bobevenson wrote: The free market did not generate the unions, the government did by granting them the right to force companies to negotiate with them.

Oh wait. Free Unions emerged because they fought for rights in the DEMOCRATIC system, numbnuts.
Communists countries don't have free unions.

Again, the free market didn't generate unions, oppressive socialist governments did. I don't understand why you can't get that through your thick skull.

Left wing politics is the natural consequence of freedom. That is why you have all the rights that you do.
If people can't freely join into groups to FREELY negotiate the wages and conditions, then you have oppression.

[edited by iMod]

Kayla wrote:this may be different in Sweden

so you are saying that if your coworkers form a union you dont have to join one and if you get a job in a unionized place you dont have to join a union?

I AM NOT FROM SWEDEN! I... AM... NORWEGIAN! The long gitar-shaped country stretching along the atlantic ocean in northern europe, with sweden to the east, denmark across a strait to the south, iceland over the sea to the west, and great britain over the ocean to the south-west.

And to your question: I wouldn't think so, in any case I guess they could sue the workplace for discrimination. But I don't understand why anyone would not want to, unless there is something very special about you, you're likely to just loose benefits. And people who are special usually get leadership or high-ranking jobs anyways and there are no unions I think, in general, for leaders and people of that kind.

Employers usually boast when they say that jobs are covered by "tariffs", that is, government + union + business = negotiated sector-wage-level. As those wages are usually higher in jobs where it makes sense to form unions, than comparable jobs not covered by it (I reckon those employers in those uncovered jobs are generally cheapskates or has special need for people doing jobs for low wages anyways).

[edited by iMod]

bobevenson wrote: The unions killed Hostess Twinkies pure and simple, honey, by rejecting the employer's final offer before going out of business. I just hope it puts another nail in the coffin of unionism. And I hope those stupid union workers never find another job and have to go on welfare due to the policies of their socialistic government that is ultimately responsible for their demise.

there is an own evolutionary "survivial of the fittest" policy in the job-market, and that is that businesses that cannot satisfy their employers do not deserve to exist. They are not good businesses.

chaz wyman wrote:If people can't freely join into groups to FREELY negotiate the wages and conditions, then you have oppression. [edited by iMod]

First of all, I'd like to know what Chaz actually said before the heavy hand of oppression came down on him. I'm sure it had nothing to do with reality since it is painfully clear that unions don't freely negotiate wages and conditions, but have government bullies backing them up.

bobevenson wrote:

chaz wyman wrote:If people can't freely join into groups to FREELY negotiate the wages and conditions, then you have oppression. [edited by iMod]

First of all, I'd like to know what Chaz actually said before the heavy hand of oppression came down on him. I'm sure it had nothing to do with reality since it is painfully clear that unions don't freely negotiate wages and consitions, but have government bullies backing them up.

Have you heard of a thing called democracy bob?

The trouble with not having unions is a race to the bottom. How low can you pay workers? Pretty soon ordinary working people can't buy a home, can't raise a family and society starts to go backwards. Demand falls and the bosses who thought themselves so clever can't sell any goods.
If you don't share the benefits of civilisation, pretty soon you loose everything that is good about it.

If you want to live like that, then I suggest you go and live in Haiti, or maybe China North Korea would be more suitable for you?

chaz wyman wrote:

bobevenson wrote:

chaz wyman wrote:If people can't freely join into groups to FREELY negotiate the wages and conditions, then you have oppression. [edited by iMod]

First of all, I'd like to know what Chaz actually said before the heavy hand of oppression came down on him. I'm sure it had nothing to do with reality since it is painfully clear that unions don't freely negotiate wages and consitions, but have government bullies backing them up.

Have you heard of a thing called democracy bob?

Well, first of all, unions are hardly democratic. But speaking of democracy, the second president of the United States, John Adams, once said, "There never was a democracy that didn't commit suicide." Democracy is mob rule, where 51% of the people are able to take away the rights of the other 49%.