Philosophy Now Forum

Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Tue Mar 14, 2023 10:02 pm

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Tue Mar 14, 2023 9:17 pm

Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Tue Mar 14, 2023 5:33 pm "Philosophical zombies" they're called, and it's apparently a debate taken seriously by more than a few.

But about philosophical zombies...
I notice in a lot of online discussions, people will talk about how consciousness evolved. Like it is needed, adaptive. But actually, I don't see how in a deterministic universe. You only need the body to do things. There needs to be perception, but you don't need an experiencer. It's a biproduct at best. You don't need the dominoes to be aware.

Of course, I tend towards panpsychism.

I think consciousness probably does have adaptive benefits. When you call it a 'byproduct', it may be that it is not extricable from the very things it's a byproduct of.

Well, as a panpsychist, yeah, I think it's inextricable.
But if we think it came out through natural selection, I wonder why? Or at least, something else was selected for and it dragged in consciousness as a part of it. It would be strange if is got selected for itself, since behavior and things like shape, weight, and other physical qualities work or don't work well. But a pzombie primate, if it did all the things an experiencing primate did, would do just as well. It's sperm or eggs would meet the necessary counterparts. It would find food, etc.

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Tue Mar 14, 2023 10:06 pmWell, as a panpsychist, yeah, I think it's inextricable.
But if we think it came out through natural selection, I wonder why? Or at least, something else was selected for and it dragged in consciousness as a part of it. It would be strange if is got selected for itself, since behavior and things like shape, weight, and other physical qualities work or don't work well. But a pzombie primate, if it did all the things an experiencing primate did, would do just as well. It's sperm or eggs would meet the necessary counterparts. It would find food, etc.

What if consciousness itself is the direct result of our ability to imagine multiple people futures - the very source of the feeling of free will - and make choices based on that? Perhaps the consciousless competitors in the gene pool cannot envision possible futures from different courses of action, and consistently make worse choices than the conscious ones

Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Tue Mar 14, 2023 9:59 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Tue Mar 14, 2023 9:20 pm As far as I can tell we are not different from philosophical zombies.

That suggests that the reason we talk about consciousness is entirely disconnected from the fact that we are conscious. Like if you removed the conscious experience from our bodies, our bodies would continue talking about conscious experience in exactly the same way we do now, except they'd be lying.

I don't know about you guys, but I definitely think the reason my body talks about conscious experience is directly related to the fact that I'm having conscious experiences.

Yes, same for me. I can't be 100% sure about you, but I know I'm experiencing stuff. In fact I am more sure I am experiencing than I am that I am doing things.

Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Tue Mar 14, 2023 9:59 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Tue Mar 14, 2023 9:20 pm As far as I can tell we are not different from philosophical zombies.

That suggests that the reason we talk about consciousness is entirely disconnected from the fact that we are conscious. Like if you removed the conscious experience from our bodies, our bodies would continue talking about conscious experience in exactly the same way we do now, except they'd be lying.

I don't know about you guys, but I definitely think the reason my body talks about conscious experience is directly related to the fact that I'm having conscious experiences.

But isn't the whole point of PZ is that from my perspective you are just saying that, because you could well be a PZ.
And by reflection, I am a PZ to you.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Wed Mar 15, 2023 12:41 pm

Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Tue Mar 14, 2023 9:59 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Tue Mar 14, 2023 9:20 pm As far as I can tell we are not different from philosophical zombies.

That suggests that the reason we talk about consciousness is entirely disconnected from the fact that we are conscious. Like if you removed the conscious experience from our bodies, our bodies would continue talking about conscious experience in exactly the same way we do now, except they'd be lying.

I don't know about you guys, but I definitely think the reason my body talks about conscious experience is directly related to the fact that I'm having conscious experiences.

But isn't the whole point of PZ is that from my perspective you are just saying that, because you could well be a PZ.
And by reflection, I am a PZ to you.

But if it's everyone, it doesn't make much sense that the topic would come up. And me personally, I know I'm not a PZ, even if I can't prove this to you guys.

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Wed Mar 15, 2023 1:00 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Wed Mar 15, 2023 12:41 pm

Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Tue Mar 14, 2023 9:59 pm

That suggests that the reason we talk about consciousness is entirely disconnected from the fact that we are conscious. Like if you removed the conscious experience from our bodies, our bodies would continue talking about conscious experience in exactly the same way we do now, except they'd be lying.

I don't know about you guys, but I definitely think the reason my body talks about conscious experience is directly related to the fact that I'm having conscious experiences.

But isn't the whole point of PZ is that from my perspective you are just saying that, because you could well be a PZ.
And by reflection, I am a PZ to you.

But if it's everyone, it doesn't make much sense that the topic would come up. And me personally, I know I'm not a PZ, even if I can't prove this to you guys.

The reason the topic comes up is that it is a cultural norm for PZs to talk about consciousness.
Were there a community of PZs that do not, would not necessarily mean there is no consciousness,
Does every human culture talk about consciousness? I think not.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Wed Mar 15, 2023 2:50 pm The reason the topic comes up is that it is a cultural norm for PZs to talk about consciousness.

Possible I guess but very weird. They talk about something they have no experience of that explains nothing, that isn't useful, that has not even a hallucinated referent.

Were there a community of PZs that do not, would not necessarily mean there is no consciousness,

agreed

Does every human culture talk about consciousness? I think not.

I think every human culture talks about subjective experience. Things like pain for example. As distinct from wound, say.

What does this have to do with compatiblism?
It's fine if it's a tangent, but I wonder if I've missed something.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Wed Mar 15, 2023 12:41 pm

Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Tue Mar 14, 2023 9:59 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Tue Mar 14, 2023 9:20 pm As far as I can tell we are not different from philosophical zombies.

That suggests that the reason we talk about consciousness is entirely disconnected from the fact that we are conscious. Like if you removed the conscious experience from our bodies, our bodies would continue talking about conscious experience in exactly the same way we do now, except they'd be lying.

I don't know about you guys, but I definitely think the reason my body talks about conscious experience is directly related to the fact that I'm having conscious experiences.

But isn't the whole point of PZ is that from my perspective you are just saying that, because you could well be a PZ.
And by reflection, I am a PZ to you.

I don't look at it as being a "looking at you from my perspective" situation, and more a "looking at myself from my own perspective" situation.

If you could remove consciousness, somehow, from me, supporters of PZ suggest I would behave the same way as I do now. Well, one of the things I do now is I talk about conscious experience, the ineffably rich nature of conscious experience. If one wants to suggest that consciousness has no casual affect, that means that the reason I wrote the words "the ineffably rich nature of conscious experience" is entirely disconnected from the fact that I'm having those experiences, and that a zombie without those experiences would be writing the same thing.

But I'm fairly confident that the reason I'm writing those words very much IS causally connected to the fact that I'm having those experiences. And I wouldn't expect a being without those experiences to write those words.

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Wed Mar 15, 2023 3:10 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Wed Mar 15, 2023 2:50 pm The reason the topic comes up is that it is a cultural norm for PZs to talk about consciousness.

Possible I guess but very weird. They talk about something they have no experience of that explains nothing, that isn't useful, that has not even a hallucinated referent.

PZs probably talk about god, fairies and galaxies. None of which they have experience of.
It's what humans do

Were there a community of PZs that do not, would not necessarily mean there is no consciousness,

agreed

Does every human culture talk about consciousness? I think not.

I think every human culture talks about subjective experience. Things like pain for example. As distinct from wound, say.

What does this have to do with compatiblism?
It's fine if it's a tangent, but I wonder if I've missed something.

I'm happy to talk about compatibilism. But I was not the one who brought up PZs, so I have no specific referral point here.
I was merely suggesting that PZs might not be be a fruitful avenue, since they can be whatever you want then to be - of course completely determined by your point of view. (compatibly)..

re other response...
It would seem more reasonable that consciousness is a dialogue we have with our material elements within the cerebral cortex; a complex exchange of checking and rechecking, and this interaction is common to all mammals to different degrees.
None of this leads to "free will" which seem to be a claim about making capricious actions regardless of this internal dialogue, and with disregard for learning, motivation, necessity, survival instinct, emotional states.. ad infinitem which condition our eventual choice. The fact that it might be "free" is only to the degree that we are not compelled from exogenously. But just because our choice is endogenous does not mean that is it not wholly determined. It is determined by who and what we are. Each choice of the moment is only useful important and valid, if given the same circumstance we would act exactly the same way given the same determinants.
That is compatibilism.

Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Wed Mar 15, 2023 3:18 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Wed Mar 15, 2023 12:41 pm

Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Tue Mar 14, 2023 9:59 pm

That suggests that the reason we talk about consciousness is entirely disconnected from the fact that we are conscious. Like if you removed the conscious experience from our bodies, our bodies would continue talking about conscious experience in exactly the same way we do now, except they'd be lying.

I don't know about you guys, but I definitely think the reason my body talks about conscious experience is directly related to the fact that I'm having conscious experiences.

But isn't the whole point of PZ is that from my perspective you are just saying that, because you could well be a PZ.
And by reflection, I am a PZ to you.

I don't look at it as being a "looking at you from my perspective" situation, and more a "looking at myself from my own perspective" situation.

If you could remove consciousness, somehow, from me, supporters of PZ suggest I would behave the same way as I do now. Well, one of the things I do now is I talk about conscious experience, the ineffably rich nature of conscious experience. If one wants to suggest that consciousness has no casual affect, that means that the reason I wrote the words "the ineffably rich nature of conscious experience" is entirely disconnected from the fact that I'm having those experiences, and that a zombie without those experiences would be writing the same thing.

Prima facie I see no problem with that, but then how would you ever know you had done it? If PZs are a meaningful idea (which I doubt) then either they are viable with a consciousness or not. You place your money; you takes your choice. Buy since these "supporters" whoever they are cannot create a PZ, then they an say what they like and you can counter whatever they say.
There is evidence from PET scans that we make decisions before we are consciously aware of them; the PET scanner being able to predict a decision before a "conscious" choice it made. But what this would mean for the long term prospect of an organism never being able to reference the consciousness is another matter.

But I'm fairly confident that the reason I'm writing those words very much IS causally connected to the fact that I'm having those experiences. And I wouldn't expect a being without those experiences to write those words.

But then were you not conscious of your own actions, you would not expect anything; not even the Spanish Inquisition.

It would seem more reasonable that consciousness is a dialogue we have with our material elements within the cerebral cortex; a complex exchange of checking and rechecking, and this interaction is common to all mammals to different degrees.
None of this leads to "free will" which seem to be a claim about making capricious actions regardless of this internal dialogue, and with disregard for learning, motivation, necessity, survival instinct, emotional states.. ad infinitem which condition our eventual choice. The fact that it might be "free" is only to the degree that we are not compelled from exogenously. But just because our choice is endogenous does not mean that is it not wholly determined. It is determined by who and what we are. Each choice of the moment is only useful important and valid, if given the same circumstance we would act exactly the same way given the same determinants.
That is compatibilism.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Wed Mar 15, 2023 6:02 pm

But I'm fairly confident that the reason I'm writing those words very much IS causally connected to the fact that I'm having those experiences. And I wouldn't expect a being without those experiences to write those words.

But then were you not conscious of your own actions, you would not expect anything; not even the Spanish Inquisition.

It's me right now with the expectation one way or the other, not some future hypothetical me without consciousness.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Wed Mar 15, 2023 5:43 pm The reason the topic comes up is that it is a cultural norm for PZs to talk about consciousness.

Possible I guess but very weird. They talk about something they have no experience of that explains nothing, that isn't useful, that has not even a hallucinated referent.
[/quote]

PZs probably talk about god, fairies and galaxies. None of which they have experience of.
It's what humans do

I would guess that you consider gods and fairies things that people make up to prevent feeling certain things. A PZ would have no reason to soothe themselves - this is what I meant by a hallucinated referent. Yes, humans talk about those things, and I can imagine PZs might talk about galaxies, since they could well talk about things that they think exist including things that do. But I can't see any reason for a PZ to talk about consciousness. They have no need to be soothed by the idea. It refers to nothing they experience or interact with.

Yes, PZs might spend their days talking about angst, but I can't see how natural selection would have anything but the most infinitesmal of leading to this since they have no experience that that idea can refer to. And it communicates nothing anyone else can even hallucinate, since they can't do that either.

Saying it's what humans do misses the precise difference between humans and PZs. There are reasons a human would talk about consciousness or subjective experience.

And God said, "let there be compatibilism and there was compatibilism". Halellujah!

Agent Smith wrote: ↑Thu Mar 16, 2023 6:32 am And God said, "let there be compatibilism and there was compatibilism". Halellujah!

I think you have that wrong.
The non-existent God declares there to be free will, as without it there an can no faith and without faith there is no god.

Without free will there can only be Calvinism.

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Thu Mar 16, 2023 6:17 amI would guess that you consider gods and fairies things that people make up to prevent feeling certain things. A PZ would have no reason to soothe themselves - this is what I meant by a hallucinated referent. Yes, humans talk about those things, and I can imagine PZs might talk about galaxies, since they could well talk about things that they think exist including things that do. But I can't see any reason for a PZ to talk about consciousness. They have no need to be soothed by the idea. It refers to nothing they experience or interact with.

You cannot have your cake and eat it.
Either PZs cannot talk about consciousness because they do not have conscious experience of it.
Yet when it comes to the panoply of other shite about which they can have no experience then you invent some other reason.
The trouble with your version of a PZ, is that they would have to be completely struck dumb and totally imobile.
In other words your PZs would just be dead.
Immediately your entire thought experiment collapses.

Yes, PZs might spend their days talking about angst, but I can't see how natural selection would have anything but the most infinitesmal of leading to this since they have no experience that that idea can refer to. And it communicates nothing anyone else can even hallucinate, since they can't do that either.

See above

Saying it's what humans do misses the precise difference between humans and PZs. There are reasons a human would talk about consciousness or subjective experience.

And there are reasons why dead things remain dead.
None of this advances a case for or against compatibilism.