Philosophy Now Forum

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2023 5:22 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2023 3:59 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2023 3:40 pm
No you do not.
It's nonsense

You do this in a closed manifold. Think of a sphere. It is a closed manifold. An individual living on this surface reaches the same point if he moves long enough on the sphere.

Okay, think of reality. Think of your experience, and think of England.

The problem is that spacetime is a huge manifold so it takes a very long time to reach the same point by traveling. That is why we cannot experience reaching the same point in spacetime given the fact that we cannot travel fast enough or wait long enough. Of course, if the spacetime manifold is closed.

Which one of you two is arguing for the universe having a supernatural explanation for its existing?

VVilliam wrote: ↑Sun Dec 03, 2023 12:29 am Which one of you two is arguing for the universe having a supernatural explanation for its existing?

For now, we are discussing whether the universe has a beginning. I already answered the question here.

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2023 6:14 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2023 5:22 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2023 3:59 pm
You do this in a closed manifold. Think of a sphere. It is a closed manifold. An individual living on this surface reaches the same point if he moves long enough on the sphere.

Okay, think of reality. Think of your experience, and think of England.

The problem is that spacetime is a huge manifold so it takes a very long time to reach the same point by traveling. That is why we cannot experience reaching the same point in spacetime given the fact that we cannot travel fast enough or wait long enough. Of course, if the spacetime manifold is closed.

What you are claiming is a fantasy. It is way beyond any empirical ability to confirm of deny. It's just conceptual masturbation

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sun Dec 03, 2023 11:33 am

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2023 6:14 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2023 5:22 pm
Okay, think of reality. Think of your experience, and think of England.

The problem is that spacetime is a huge manifold so it takes a very long time to reach the same point by traveling. That is why we cannot experience reaching the same point in spacetime given the fact that we cannot travel fast enough or wait long enough. Of course, if the spacetime manifold is closed.

What you are claiming is a fantasy. It is way beyond any empirical ability to confirm of deny. It's just conceptual masturbation

Maybe Open Universe is mental masturbation. How could we know?

bahman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 03, 2023 11:54 am

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sun Dec 03, 2023 11:33 am

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2023 6:14 pm
The problem is that spacetime is a huge manifold so it takes a very long time to reach the same point by traveling. That is why we cannot experience reaching the same point in spacetime given the fact that we cannot travel fast enough or wait long enough. Of course, if the spacetime manifold is closed.

What you are claiming is a fantasy. It is way beyond any empirical ability to confirm of deny. It's just conceptual masturbation

Maybe Open Universe is mental masturbation. How could we know?

If you have to ask; then it is.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sun Dec 03, 2023 12:18 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 03, 2023 11:54 am

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sun Dec 03, 2023 11:33 am

What you are claiming is a fantasy. It is way beyond any empirical ability to confirm of deny. It's just conceptual masturbation

Maybe Open Universe is mental masturbation. How could we know?

If you have to ask; then it is.

So you agree?

bahman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 03, 2023 12:37 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sun Dec 03, 2023 12:18 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 03, 2023 11:54 am
Maybe Open Universe is mental masturbation. How could we know?

If you have to ask; then it is.

So you agree?

Yes, as I said. It is mental masturbation, as you too now seem to agree.

Open and closed universes are, well, philosophy. And this is, well, a philosophy forum.
For the Kalam, the temporal dimension (the dimension that is time, or in which time is a path), needs to be open. Closed temporal dimension = no Kalam.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sun Dec 03, 2023 2:09 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 03, 2023 12:37 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sun Dec 03, 2023 12:18 pm
If you have to ask; then it is.

So you agree?

Yes, as I said. It is mental masturbation, as you too now seem to agree.

No, I am agnostic when it comes to the universe being closed or open. There is no fact.

Even many physicists are actually so bad at imagining a closed universe even in space, that they tend to think that the universe has to be curved for it. That's utter hogwash, the default view imo is that the universe is closed and completely flat. And imagining a closed universe in time is even harder than this.

So now physicists are surprised that so far the universe seems to be indeed flat. Yeah yeah.

bahman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 03, 2023 4:23 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sun Dec 03, 2023 2:09 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 03, 2023 12:37 pm
So you agree?

Yes, as I said. It is mental masturbation, as you too now seem to agree.

No, I am agnostic when it comes to the universe being closed or open. There is no fact.

But you said"The problem is that spacetime is a huge manifold so it takes a very long time to reach the same point by traveling. " and made other positivist statements about the universe.
Make up your mind

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sun Dec 03, 2023 6:27 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 03, 2023 4:23 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sun Dec 03, 2023 2:09 pm
Yes, as I said. It is mental masturbation, as you too now seem to agree.

No, I am agnostic when it comes to the universe being closed or open. There is no fact.

But you said"The problem is that spacetime is a huge manifold so it takes a very long time to reach the same point by traveling. " and made other positivist statements about the universe.
Make up your mind

I should have said that "The problem is that spacetime is a huge manifold so it might take a very long time to reach the same point by traveling."

bahman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 03, 2023 6:39 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sun Dec 03, 2023 6:27 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 03, 2023 4:23 pm
No, I am agnostic when it comes to the universe being closed or open. There is no fact.

But you said"The problem is that spacetime is a huge manifold so it takes a very long time to reach the same point by traveling. " and made other positivist statements about the universe.
Make up your mind

I should have said that "The problem is that spacetime is a huge manifold so it might take a very long time to reach the same point by traveling."

There is absolutely NO warrent for the claim that you reach the same point.
And is utterly illogical to suggest you end up at the same time.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sun Dec 03, 2023 6:45 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 03, 2023 6:39 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sun Dec 03, 2023 6:27 pm

But you said"The problem is that spacetime is a huge manifold so it takes a very long time to reach the same point by traveling. " and made other positivist statements about the universe.
Make up your mind

I should have said that "The problem is that spacetime is a huge manifold so it might take a very long time to reach the same point by traveling."

There is absolutely NO warrent for the claim that you reach the same point.
And is utterly illogical to suggest you end up at the same time.

We do by definition in a finite closed manifold.