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Re: is the Christian concept of the One from a philosophical point of view true?
Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2023 3:17 pm
by Immanuel Can
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 3:07 pm
And it is somehow evident to you that the clerics in LA did not possess any of those skills or knowledge.
Yes. They didn't use any of the credible methods of textual criticism. They completely departed the entire discipline, and went out on their own speculative limb. And if you read some stuff about textual criticism, you'll find out that's exactly what they were doing.
Now, I'm sure some of them KNEW there were better methods and a much more credible body of scholarship: but their purpose in the "Seminar" was to escape all that, and to be able to have things their own way instead. Really, they were trying to render a version of the Bible that would be more pleasantly compatible with their own modernist prejudices. And that's why their efforts have gone largely rejected, apart from in the most liberal and wishy-washy religious groups.
Re: is the Christian concept of the One from a philosophical point of view true?
Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2023 3:23 pm
by Gary Childress
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 3:13 pm
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 3:05 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 3:00 pm
MLK was a mere man. He did some good things; his biographers also say he did some bad things, particularly in his personal life.
https://medium.com/lessons-from-history ... 93f19db839.
On the whole, I'm glad the man existed, because of his effect on civil rights -- but I don't call him personally "good." I leave that assessment to the Judge.
There you go. I feel much the same way about Jesus.
Okay. But I don't call MLK "good." Why did you call Jesus "good," and then not believe what He says?
What was not "good" about MLK? Was he "bad"? Was he just like anyone else who sat by the road and slung racial slurs at protestors?
Re: is the Christian concept of the One from a philosophical point of view true?
Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2023 3:24 pm
by Gary Childress
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 3:17 pm
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 3:07 pm
And it is somehow evident to you that the clerics in LA did not possess any of those skills or knowledge.
Yes. They didn't use any of the credible methods of textual criticism. They completely departed the entire discipline, and went out on their own speculative limb. And if you read some stuff about textual criticism, you'll find out that's exactly what they were doing.
Now, I'm sure some of them KNEW there were better methods and a much more credible body of scholarship: but their purpose in the "Seminar" was to escape all that, and to be able to have things their own way instead. Really, they were trying to render a version of the Bible that would be more pleasantly compatible with their own modernist prejudices. And that's why their efforts have gone largely rejected, apart from in the most liberal and wishy-washy religious groups.
OK. So they have "modernist prejudices". Did the Roman clerics who put together the original have "ancient prejudices" perhaps?
Re: is the Christian concept of the One from a philosophical point of view true?
Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2023 3:30 pm
by Immanuel Can
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 3:23 pm
What was not "good" about MLK?
Ask his biographers. Read the link.
https://medium.com/lessons-from-history ... 93f19db839
Re: is the Christian concept of the One from a philosophical point of view true?
Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2023 3:36 pm
by Immanuel Can
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 3:24 pm
OK. So they have "modernist prejudices". Did the Roman clerics who put together the original have "ancient prejudices" perhaps?
Well, I hate to point this out, but you're kind of making me do it: if you knew textual criticism, you would ask a question that actually reflected how the manuscripts were "put together." The original manuscripts were primarily in Aramaic, Hebrew and Greek. Latin manuscripts didn't exist until the fourth century, and formed the Roman Catholic Vulgate.
Re: is the Christian concept of the One from a philosophical point of view true?
Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2023 3:36 pm
by Gary Childress
OMG! He had sex with other women? I must now condemn him! He probably hid their dead bodies somewhere in Harlem afterward! Maybe they were white women! OMG! He was black!
What do you want me to say. If it weren't for sex, sometimes even adulterous sex, none of us would be here today. However, if someone actually killed me like the Bush Administration did to Iraqis, Afghanis, and American soldiers who fought them, then I can tell you with certainty I would indeed not be here today.
So what do you think MLK is if he is not "good"?
Re: is the Christian concept of the One from a philosophical point of view true?
Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2023 3:42 pm
by Gary Childress
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 3:36 pm
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 3:24 pm
OK. So they have "modernist prejudices". Did the Roman clerics who put together the original have "ancient prejudices" perhaps?
Well, I hate to point this out, but you're kind of making me do it: if you knew textual criticism, you would ask a question that actually reflected how the manuscripts were "put together." The original manuscripts were primarily in Aramaic, Hebrew and Greek. Latin manuscripts didn't exist until the fourth century, and formed the Roman Catholic Vulgate.
Why wouldn't you point something out that was critical to sustaining your argument all along? Were you hiding the truth from me? Is that the Christian way?
So who adopted the Bible? And why did they adopt the verses they did?
Re: is the Christian concept of the One from a philosophical point of view true?
Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2023 3:52 pm
by Immanuel Can
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 3:36 pm
So what do you think MLK is if he is not "good"?
It's not my job to say. I'm not the Judge. To pronounce sentence on a man's whole character, whether "good" or "evil," is not for me to do. He was a man. Men sometimes do good things. Men are also flawed. That's the most I can say.
And honestly, you can't say more. You don't know.
Re: is the Christian concept of the One from a philosophical point of view true?
Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2023 3:54 pm
by Immanuel Can
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 3:42 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 3:36 pm
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 3:24 pm
OK. So they have "modernist prejudices". Did the Roman clerics who put together the original have "ancient prejudices" perhaps?
Well, I hate to point this out, but you're kind of making me do it: if you knew textual criticism, you would ask a question that actually reflected how the manuscripts were "put together." The original manuscripts were primarily in Aramaic, Hebrew and Greek. Latin manuscripts didn't exist until the fourth century, and formed the Roman Catholic Vulgate.
Why wouldn't you point something out that was critical to sustaining your argument all along?
Why would I embarass you? Why wouldn't I give you leeway to self-correct?
So who adopted the Bible? And why did they adopt the verses they did?
The Bible was not originally in "verses." The verse and chapter divisions were added much later. It was originally in whole manuscripts. But all this is available to anybody who is interested in textual criticism. You can find it out for yourself.
Re: is the Christian concept of the One from a philosophical point of view true?
Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2023 3:55 pm
by Gary Childress
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 3:52 pm
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 3:36 pm
So what do you think MLK is if he is not "good"?
It's not my job to say. I'm not the Judge. To pronounce sentence on a man's whole character, whether "good" or "evil," is not for me to do. He was a man. Men sometimes do good things. Men are also flawed. That's the most I can say.
And honestly, you can't say more. You don't know.
OK. I'm no one's judge. So let's throw the word "good" (which you introduced) out the door of this conversation. Who should I listen to, IC? Should I read some of MLK's writings? Which books should I read and which should I not?
Re: is the Christian concept of the One from a philosophical point of view true?
Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2023 3:56 pm
by Gary Childress
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 3:54 pm
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 3:42 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 3:36 pm
Well, I hate to point this out, but you're kind of making me do it: if you knew textual criticism, you would ask a question that actually reflected how the manuscripts were "put together." The original manuscripts were primarily in Aramaic, Hebrew and Greek. Latin manuscripts didn't exist until the fourth century, and formed the Roman Catholic Vulgate.
Why wouldn't you point something out that was critical to sustaining your argument all along?
Why would I embarass you? Why wouldn't I give you leeway to self-correct?
So who adopted the Bible? And why did they adopt the verses they did?
The Bible was not originally in "verses." The verse and chapter divisions were added much later. It was originally in whole manuscripts. But all this is available to anybody who is interested in textual criticism. You can find it out for yourself.
Do I seem to feel embarrassed? I'm looking for truth. I'm not playing a game of one-upmanship for sport or whatever it is you are doing.
Re: is the Christian concept of the One from a philosophical point of view true?
Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2023 4:07 pm
by Immanuel Can
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 3:56 pm
Do I seem to feel embarrassed?
You certainly seemed to be. But if I was wrong, then I was being oversensitive to your feelings. I don't have to continue to be, if you find that offensive.
I'm looking for truth.
Jesus answered, “...Everyone on the side of truth listens to me.” (John 18:37)
Re: is the Christian concept of the One from a philosophical point of view true?
Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2023 4:10 pm
by Gary Childress
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 3:54 pm
So who adopted the Bible? And why did they adopt the verses they did?
The Bible was not originally in "verses." The verse and chapter divisions were added much later. It was originally in whole manuscripts. But all this is available to anybody who is interested in textual criticism. You can find it out for yourself.
I'm not a Bible scholar and I don't want to be. I'm not interested. If you want pawns to string along with morsels of Bible scholarship, then you can join every other philosopher and theorist out there in the world as far as I'm concerned. I go where I feel called. And right now truth is what I'm called to. I'm not convinced the Bible has it and I'm not going to invest my resources into an institution of religion that to me amounts to little more than an instrument of control.
Re: is the Christian concept of the One from a philosophical point of view true?
Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2023 4:13 pm
by Gary Childress
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 3:54 pm
So who adopted the Bible? And why did they adopt the verses they did?
The Bible was not originally in "verses." The verse and chapter divisions were added much later. It was originally in whole manuscripts. But all this is available to anybody who is interested in textual criticism. You can find it out for yourself.
OK. Then who adopted the "chapter divisions" that were adopted or were ALL the writings of the Hebrew scholars incorporated into the text. It's still the same question, feel free to answer it.
Re: is the Christian concept of the One from a philosophical point of view true?
Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2023 4:14 pm
by Immanuel Can
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 4:10 pm
I'm not a Bible scholar and I don't want to be. I'm not interested.
Then don't ask.