Trinity

[Averroes]

Oh, so there is no God but the God! - well that clears that up then, where do I sign up?

Indeed, there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is His servant and messenger. Do you testify that there is no god but Allah and do you testify that Muhammad is the servant and messenger of Allah?

No.

That's surprising as I was looking forward to meet you before the Kaaba that you so much wanted to walk around with me. Anyway, I am fine with your decision. It's your choice and I acknowledge it as such.

I testify that Morhammad was not much more than someone that had sex with a child of the age of 9

Muslim scholars disagree on this matter. Many Muslim scholars say that prophet Muhammad (pbuh) married mother Aisha(may Allah be pleased with her) when she was between 15 to 18 years old.

But what is certain, according to the Christian scriptures and the Christian scholars themselves is that Mary, the mother of Jesus was married to Joseph when she was 12 years old and Joseph was a very old man. Joseph was a carpenter and when Jesus was born, Joseph taught him carpentry.

In the Gospel of James for example, Mary is said to be 12 years old when married to Joseph:

• 8. And her parents went down marvelling, and praising the Lord God, because the child had not turned back. And Mary was in the temple of the Lord as if she were a dove that dwelt there, and she received food from the hand of an angel. And when she was twelve years old there was held a council of the priests, saying: Behold, Mary has reached the age of twelve years in the temple of the Lord. What then shall we do with her, test perchance she defile the sanctuary of the Lord? And they said to the high priest: Thou standest by the altar of the Lord; go in, and pray concerning her; and whatever the Lord shall manifest unto thee, that also will we do. And the high priest went in, taking the robe with the twelve bells into the holy of holies; and he prayed concerning her. And behold an angel of the Lord stood by him, saying unto him: Zacharias, Zacharias, go out and assemble the widowers of the people, and let them bring each his rod; and to whomsoever the Lord shall show a sign, his wife shall she be. And the heralds went out through all the circuit of Judaea, and the trumpet of the Lord sounded, and all ran.
  
  9. And Joseph, throwing away his axe, went out to meet them; and when they had assembled, they went away to the high priest, taking with them their rods. And he, taking the rods of all of them, entered into the temple, and prayed; and having ended his prayer, he took the rods and came out, and gave them to them: but there was no sign in them, and Joseph took his rod last; and, behold, a dove came out of the rod, and flew upon Joseph's head. And the priest said to Joseph, Thou hast been chosen by lot to take into thy keeping the virgin of the Lord. But Joseph refused, saying: I have children, and I am an old man, and she is a young girl. I am afraid lest I become a laughing-stock to the sons of Israel. And the priest said to Joseph: Fear the Lord thy God, and remember what the Lord did to Dathan, and Abiram, and Korah; how the earth opened, and they were swallowed up on account of their contradiction. And now fear, O Joseph, lest the same things happen in thy house. And Joseph was afraid, and took her into his keeping. And Joseph said to Mary: Behold, I have received thee from the temple of the Lord; and now I leave thee in my house, and go away to build my buildings, and I shall come to thee. The Lord will protect thee. [Infancy Gospel of James 8-9]

btw It's ok after I've signed up to one day change my mind isn't it, there's something else I am quite religious about. Islam meaning 'peace' - there is nothing bad that happens to apostates is there?

First are you intending to becoming Muslim?

No, I actually asked first. What happens to apostates in the religion of 'PEACE'?

Don't worry then. As you are not intending to become Muslim, you cannot renounce something you have not accepted in the first place, right? But anyway apostates in Islam are not burned alive like heretics in Christianity: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... s_heretics

Hey, there are probably some jews out in there in the desert that speak Aramaic and call God Allah.

Not only in the desert but everywhere that there are Jews. For example, in England there are Jews who call God, the Almighty by His name Allah. Do you have a problem with these Jews that call God, the Almighty "Allah"?

None what so ever.

I am not convinced. Anyway, many Jews have embraced Islam in the past and still today many Jews and Christians as well embrace Islam.

Strange that searching an encyclopedia on the subject of God in Judaism - there is NO mention of it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_in_Judaism

That was an interesting article on Wikipedia, thank you for sharing. It says that Jews consider the trinity to be heretical and akin to polytheism.

Wikipedia:

• The worship of multiple gods (polytheism) and the concept of God having multiple persons (as in the doctrine of Trinity) are equally unimaginable in Judaism. The idea of God as a duality or trinity is heretical in Judaism – it is considered akin to polytheism.
  
  • God, the Cause of all, is one. This does not mean one as in one of series, nor one like a species (which encompasses many individuals), nor one as in an object that is made up of many elements, nor as a single simple object that is infinitely divisible. Rather, God is a unity unlike any other possible unity. (Maimonides, 13 Principles of Faith, Second Principle)
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_in_Judaism

The word you should have used was 'considered' (past tense)

No. The word "considered" in the Wikipedia statement:"The trinity is considered akin to polytheism in Judaism" is not in the past tense! But it is the past particle of the verb "to consider" which is used in the passive form in the present tense in that statement. You can learn more about the English language and its passive voice in the present tense at the following site: https://ell.brainpop.com/level3/unit1/l ... %20verb).

Let's get back to our Kaaba trip. Which way are we going to walk around it?

Let's go step by step. After testifying to the Islamic faith, we have to pray the Muslim prayer. Do you know how to pray the Muslim prayer? It's much like biblical Jesus falling down on his face in the Bible and begging God, the Almighty for something. You are ok with that, right?

Am I ok with what? Christ feeling the impending suffering he was about to endure and thus falling to his face in anguish?

Indeed, Christ by himself was weak without the help and support of God, the Almighty whom Christ called by His name "Allah".

Care to post the words of the muzzle_em prayer or should I look it up?

You can look it up if you want but I can give you a couple of links to some YouTube videos of Quranic verses which are recited in Muslim prayers.

Surah Fatihah(the opening) : https://youtu.be/ZYaZ6Odbx_Y
Surah Ikhlaas (the sincerity) :https://youtu.be/wZSCzrnY9Pc

These were the first two short but important chapters of the Holy Quran that I memorized after I embraced Islam so that I could recite them in prayers. I didn't know how to read Arabic back then! I learned to recite these from the transliterated text! Now, I know Arabic and it's truly a beautiful language.

It was interesting to exchange with you again attofishpi. Have a nice day.

[attofishpi]

Indeed, there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is His servant and messenger. Do you testify that there is no god but Allah and do you testify that Muhammad is the servant and messenger of Allah?

No.

That's surprising as I was looking forward to meet you before the Kaaba that you so much wanted to walk around with me. Anyway, I am fine with your decision. It's your choice and I acknowledge it as such.

SORRY. NOT IN TO IDOL WORSHIP - in this instance A BIG BLACK BOX.

I testify that Morhammad was not much more than someone that had sex with a child of the age of 9

Muslim scholars disagree on this matter. Many Muslim scholars say that prophet Muhammad (pbuh) married mother Aisha(may Allah be pleased with her) when she was between 15 to 18 years old.

But what is certain, according to the Christian scriptures and the Christian scholars themselves is that Mary, the mother of Jesus was married to Joseph when she was 12 years old and Joseph was a very old man. Joseph was a carpenter and when Jesus was born, Joseph taught him carpentry.

In the Gospel of James for example, Mary is said to be 12 years old when married to Joseph:

• 8. And her parents went down marvelling, and praising the Lord God, because the child had not turned back. And Mary was in the temple of the Lord as if she were a dove that dwelt there, and she received food from the hand of an angel. And when she was twelve years old there was held a council of the priests, saying: Behold, Mary has reached the age of twelve years in the temple of the Lord. What then shall we do with her, test perchance she defile the sanctuary of the Lord? And they said to the high priest: Thou standest by the altar of the Lord; go in, and pray concerning her; and whatever the Lord shall manifest unto thee, that also will we do. And the high priest went in, taking the robe with the twelve bells into the holy of holies; and he prayed concerning her. And behold an angel of the Lord stood by him, saying unto him: Zacharias, Zacharias, go out and assemble the widowers of the people, and let them bring each his rod; and to whomsoever the Lord shall show a sign, his wife shall she be. And the heralds went out through all the circuit of Judaea, and the trumpet of the Lord sounded, and all ran.
  
  9. And Joseph, throwing away his axe, went out to meet them; and when they had assembled, they went away to the high priest, taking with them their rods. And he, taking the rods of all of them, entered into the temple, and prayed; and having ended his prayer, he took the rods and came out, and gave them to them: but there was no sign in them, and Joseph took his rod last; and, behold, a dove came out of the rod, and flew upon Joseph's head. And the priest said to Joseph, Thou hast been chosen by lot to take into thy keeping the virgin of the Lord. But Joseph refused, saying: I have children, and I am an old man, and she is a young girl. I am afraid lest I become a laughing-stock to the sons of Israel. And the priest said to Joseph: Fear the Lord thy God, and remember what the Lord did to Dathan, and Abiram, and Korah; how the earth opened, and they were swallowed up on account of their contradiction. And now fear, O Joseph, lest the same things happen in thy house. And Joseph was afraid, and took her into his keeping. And Joseph said to Mary: Behold, I have received thee from the temple of the Lord; and now I leave thee in my house, and go away to build my buildings, and I shall come to thee. The Lord will protect thee.

You really do just post crap. The problem I have, that even if there was truth in your crap, you are not pointing out any reasoning as to why it is important to your faith.

First are you intending to becoming Muslim?

No, I actually asked first. What happens to apostates in the religion of 'PEACE'?

Don't worry then. As you are not intending to become Muslim, you cannot renounce something you have not accepted in the first place, right? But anyway apostates in Islam are not burned alive like heretics in Christianity: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... s_heretics

Are we talking about a CURRENT requirement of Christianity? ..or something rather barbaric from medieval times?

What happens NOW to Muslims that real eyes what a pile of contradictions to its term (PEACE) are in your book and decide to leave? (apostates)

Not only in the desert but everywhere that there are Jews. For example, in England there are Jews who call God, the Almighty by His name Allah. Do you have a problem with these Jews that call God, the Almighty "Allah"?

None what so ever.

I am not convinced. Anyway, many Jews have embraced Islam in the past and still today many Jews and Christians as well embrace Islam.

What can I say, stupid people do what stupid people to - become sheep.

That was an interesting article on Wikipedia, thank you for sharing. It says that Jews consider the trinity to be heretical and akin to polytheism.

Wikipedia:

• The worship of multiple gods (polytheism) and the concept of God having multiple persons (as in the doctrine of Trinity) are equally unimaginable in Judaism. The idea of God as a duality or trinity is heretical in Judaism – it is considered akin to polytheism.
  
  • God, the Cause of all, is one. This does not mean one as in one of series, nor one like a species (which encompasses many individuals), nor one as in an object that is made up of many elements, nor as a single simple object that is infinitely divisible. Rather, God is a unity unlike any other possible unity. (Maimonides, 13 Principles of Faith, Second Principle)
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_in_Judaism

The word you should have used was 'considered' (past tense)

No. The word "considered" in the Wikipedia statement:"The trinity is considered akin to polytheism in Judaism" is not in the past tense! But it is the past particle of the verb "to consider" which is used in the passive form in the present tense in that statement. You can learn more about the English language and its passive voice in the present tense at the following site: https://ell.brainpop.com/level3/unit1/l ... %20verb).

You have misquoted me there - my edit was:- What is the doctrine of the Trinity?

Let's go step by step. After testifying to the Islamic faith, we have to pray the Muslim prayer. Do you know how to pray the Muslim prayer? It's much like biblical Jesus falling down on his face in the Bible and begging God, the Almighty for something. You are ok with that, right?

Am I ok with what? Christ feeling the impending suffering he was about to endure and thus falling to his face in anguish?

Indeed, Christ by himself was weak without the help and support of God, the Almighty whom Christ called by His name "Allah".

Here we go again, muddying the clean Christian term GOD and not comprehending the reasoning of Christ God.

Care to post the words of the muzzle_em prayer or should I look it up?

You can look it up if you want but I can give you a couple of links to some YouTube videos of Quranic verses which are recited in Muslim prayers.

Surah Fatihah(the opening) : https://youtu.be/ZYaZ6Odbx_Y
Surah Ikhlaas (the sincerity) :https://youtu.be/wZSCzrnY9Pc

These were the first two short but important chapters of the Holy Quran that I memorized after I embraced Islam so that I could recite them in prayers. I didn't know how to read Arabic then! I learned to recite these from the transliterated text! Now, I know Arabic and it's truly a beautiful language.

It was interesting to exchange with you again attofishpi. Have a nice day.

I don't think it's a beautiful language by any measure, in fact it all sounds rather guttural indeed evil. ALLAH, RAM-A-DAN, MOR-HAM-MAD.

btw. You forgot to include this from me:- ...last night I was thinking about all the stupid sheep, walking around the big black box of the Kaaba thinking that God would actually be impressed by such nonsense. God said to me "I find it funny" !

What direction around the Kaaba are you going to walk?

[Averroes]

SORRY. NOT IN TO IDOL WORSHIP - in this instance A BIG BLACK BOX.

The Kaaba is a mosque by the way! People pray INSIDE the Kaaba. The Kaaba (ie the big black box) is a mosque which was first built by Prophet Abraham (pbuh) and his son prophet Ishmael (pbuh). The Kaaba is not an idol. For example, in the following YT video, one can see the authorities of Mecca praying INSIDE the Kaaba and cleaning it afterwards as well: https://youtu.be/EQ-oq2xjBi4. So Muslims pray both inside and outside the Kaaba.

I testify that Morhammad was not much more than someone that had sex with a child of the age of 9

Muslim scholars disagree on this matter. Many Muslim scholars say that prophet Muhammad (pbuh) married mother Aisha(may Allah be pleased with her) when she was between 15 to 18 years old.

But what is certain, according to the Christian scriptures and the Christian scholars themselves is that Mary, the mother of Jesus was married to Joseph when she was 12 years old and Joseph was a very old man. Joseph was a carpenter and when Jesus was born, Joseph taught him carpentry.

In the Gospel of James for example, Mary is said to be 12 years old when married to Joseph:

• 8. And her parents went down marvelling, and praising the Lord God, because the child had not turned back. And Mary was in the temple of the Lord as if she were a dove that dwelt there, and she received food from the hand of an angel. And when she was twelve years old there was held a council of the priests, saying: Behold, Mary has reached the age of twelve years in the temple of the Lord. What then shall we do with her, test perchance she defile the sanctuary of the Lord? And they said to the high priest: Thou standest by the altar of the Lord; go in, and pray concerning her; and whatever the Lord shall manifest unto thee, that also will we do. And the high priest went in, taking the robe with the twelve bells into the holy of holies; and he prayed concerning her. And behold an angel of the Lord stood by him, saying unto him: Zacharias, Zacharias, go out and assemble the widowers of the people, and let them bring each his rod; and to whomsoever the Lord shall show a sign, his wife shall she be. And the heralds went out through all the circuit of Judaea, and the trumpet of the Lord sounded, and all ran.
  
  9. And Joseph, throwing away his axe, went out to meet them; and when they had assembled, they went away to the high priest, taking with them their rods. And he, taking the rods of all of them, entered into the temple, and prayed; and having ended his prayer, he took the rods and came out, and gave them to them: but there was no sign in them, and Joseph took his rod last; and, behold, a dove came out of the rod, and flew upon Joseph's head. And the priest said to Joseph, Thou hast been chosen by lot to take into thy keeping the virgin of the Lord. But Joseph refused, saying: I have children, and I am an old man, and she is a young girl. I am afraid lest I become a laughing-stock to the sons of Israel. And the priest said to Joseph: Fear the Lord thy God, and remember what the Lord did to Dathan, and Abiram, and Korah; how the earth opened, and they were swallowed up on account of their contradiction. And now fear, O Joseph, lest the same things happen in thy house. And Joseph was afraid, and took her into his keeping. And Joseph said to Mary: Behold, I have received thee from the temple of the Lord; and now I leave thee in my house, and go away to build my buildings, and I shall come to thee. The Lord will protect thee.

You really do just post crap. The problem I have, that even if there was truth in your crap, you are not pointing out any reasoning as to why it is important to your faith.

You seemed to be getting angry again attofishpi. Perhaps you had a bad night or a bad day. Anyway as I told you, you should not get angry. Anger will ruin your physical and mental well-being.

But anyway, according to the Christian scriptures, Mary, who was the mother of Jesus, was 12 years old when married to Joseph. And this is rather typical of a Jewish marriage. When a girl reaches the age of 12 years old in Judaism, she becomes a woman and can get married. Still nowadays Jews celebrate this passage into adulthood of Jewish girls. Mary, the mother of Jesus was also following the law of Moses. The celebration is called Bat Mitzvah: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar_and_bat_mitzvah

No, I actually asked first. What happens to apostates in the religion of 'PEACE'?

Don't worry then. As you are not intending to become Muslim, you cannot renounce something you have not accepted in the first place, right? But anyway apostates in Islam are not burned alive like heretics in Christianity: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... s_heretics

Are we talking about a CURRENT requirement of Christianity? ..or something rather barbaric from medieval times?

Christianity hasn't changed since medieval times.

The word you should have used was 'considered' (past tense)

No. The word "considered" in the Wikipedia statement:"The trinity is considered akin to polytheism in Judaism" is not in the past tense! But it is the past particle of the verb "to consider" which is used in the passive form in the present tense in that statement. You can learn more about the English language and its passive voice in the present tense at the following site: https://ell.brainpop.com/level3/unit1/l ... %20verb).

You have misquoted me there - my edit was:- What is the doctrine of the Trinity?

Your edit came too late. I quoted what you wrote first before you changed your mind.

What direction around the Kaaba are you going to walk?

You won't know if you don't want to come walk around the Kaaba with me. If you change your mind in the future, the door is still open.

Nice talking to you attofishpi.

[Veritas Aequitas]

Averroes wrote:



Thus Averroes plays into the hands of such as Veritas Aequitas who insists this sect is divisive. As I said earlier, it's a pity that the only Muslim who frequents here is not in any sense a theologian.

It is a pity you are trying to be an expert on Islam when you have not read the Quran thoroughly.
I insist Islam is evil and divisive [us versus them] because that is what the Quran represents. You have to read it thoroughly and objectively to realize the fact Islam is inherently divisive.

Any divisiveness in any society is bad for the society and for individuals.

Not all divisions are negative but persisting with the obsolete primal tribalistic impulse re us versus them is very malignant for humanity.
The doctrines within the Quran -the core of Islam - reinforce the tribalistic "us versus them" between Muslims [us-good] versus them [non-Muslims - evil].

The Quran can be interpreted ahistorically, as does Veritas Aequitas, and many people do so. One result of lack of historicism is people like ISIS who use a sacred text to legitimate their own violence and greed.

1. I raised the point, any person who had entered into a contract must comply with the terms of the contract.

2. Muslims are basically desperate for salvation for eternal life and avoiding being burned in eternal Hell.

3. To qualify as a "Muslim" to gain 2, ALL Muslims has to enter into contract [covenant] with Allah who promise 2 and Muslims MUST comply with all the commands of Allah in the contractual terms [in Quran to the best of their abilities]

4. Once a Muslim had entered into a contract with Allah, the contract terms from the Quran are effective at the time the contract was accepted. Therefore there is no question of "ahistorically" to gain the promised of eternal life in paradise; ALL Muslims must comply with the contractual terms [as current] within the eternal immutable Quran, otherwise it is hell for them.

5. You are wrong in thinking the Muslims of ISIS used the Quran to justify their violence and greed. The Muslims of ISIS are striving to be 'good' Muslims and do whatever Allah commands to gain eternal life [virgins, etc.] in paradise - if they don't they are aware they could end up in Hell.
Allah had stated in the Quran, whatever of this world is worthless relative to what they will gain in paradise.

6. My point is;
As per the principles of Normal Distribution, there is a NATURAL percentile, [20% conservatively] of people with evil tendency.
For the >1.5 billion Muslims there are >300 million evil prone Muslims who are desperate to for eternal life and will spontaneously comply with the evil, violent and others terms of their contract.

We need NOT to be too worried with the 1.2 billion of Muslims who are not evil prone but need to be wary only where they provide the 'brotherhood' support to the evil ones.
What is most critical is the unavoidable pool of >300 million zealous evil prone Muslims who can strike any time and anywhere to obey the evil laden commands of Allah to fulfil their contractual obligations.

The consequences of this is evident in ISIS and the terrible evil and violent acts evil prone Muslims had brought upon non-Muslims since 1400 years ago and will continue into the future.
We cannot ignore this fact and its continual consequences in the future as long the Quran and Muslims exist.

Btw, it would be appropriate for you to counter each point above first before you deviate to something else.

[Belinda]

It is a pity you are trying to be an expert on Islam when you have not read the Quran thoroughly.
I insist Islam is evil and divisive [us versus them] because that is what the Quran represents. You have to read it thoroughly and objectively to realize the fact Islam is inherently divisive.

Any divisiveness in any society is bad for the society and for individuals.

Not all divisions are negative but persisting with the obsolete primal tribalistic impulse re us versus them is very malignant for humanity.
The doctrines within the Quran -the core of Islam - reinforce the tribalistic "us versus them" between Muslims [us-good] versus them [non-Muslims - evil].

The Quran can be interpreted ahistorically, as does Veritas Aequitas, and many people do so. One result of lack of historicism is people like ISIS who use a sacred text to legitimate their own violence and greed.

1. I raised the point, any person who had entered into a contract must comply with the terms of the contract.

2. Muslims are basically desperate for salvation for eternal life and avoiding being burned in eternal Hell.

3. To qualify as a "Muslim" to gain 2, ALL Muslims has to enter into contract [covenant] with Allah who promise 2 and Muslims MUST comply with all the commands of Allah in the contractual terms [in Quran to the best of their abilities]

4. Once a Muslim had entered into a contract with Allah, the contract terms from the Quran are effective at the time the contract was accepted. Therefore there is no question of "ahistorically" to gain the promised of eternal life in paradise; ALL Muslims must comply with the contractual terms [as current] within the eternal immutable Quran, otherwise it is hell for them.

5. You are wrong in thinking the Muslims of ISIS used the Quran to justify their violence and greed. The Muslims of ISIS are striving to be 'good' Muslims and do whatever Allah commands to gain eternal life [virgins, etc.] in paradise - if they don't they are aware they could end up in Hell.
Allah had stated in the Quran, whatever of this world is worthless relative to what they will gain in paradise.

6. My point is;
As per the principles of Normal Distribution, there is a NATURAL percentile, [20% conservatively] of people with evil tendency.
For the >1.5 billion Muslims there are >300 million evil prone Muslims who are desperate to for eternal life and will spontaneously comply with the evil, violent and others terms of their contract.

We need NOT to be too worried with the 1.2 billion of Muslims who are not evil prone but need to be wary only where they provide the 'brotherhood' support to the evil ones.
What is most critical is the unavoidable pool of >300 million zealous evil prone Muslims who can strike any time and anywhere to obey the evil laden commands of Allah to fulfil their contractual obligations.

The consequences of this is evident in ISIS and the terrible evil and violent acts evil prone Muslims had brought upon non-Muslims since 1400 years ago and will continue into the future.
We cannot ignore this fact and its continual consequences in the future as long the Quran and Muslims exist.

Btw, it would be appropriate for you to counter each point above first before you deviate to something else.

1.I agree on condition the men know the terms and the import of the contract.

2.I don't know. Has anybody done a census?

3.My understanding is the intellectual contract is not all that important for Muslims. I understand what is important for Muslims is to do certain religious observances such as the stipulated prayers, and the Haj.This sort of religion of praxis contrasts with Xianity which demands the Xian believe especially in belief in the Resurrection event.

4. I agree and this is what I mean by the closing of the gate of ijtihad.

5.The ' Muslims' of ISIS would say so too. But they are either political liars, or they have been seduced.

6.I don't know the percentile of men who are psychopaths. I don't think anyone does. I do believe a) an authoritarian religion can help to control psychopathic behaviour and b) Most people can learn new ideas. Some learners are slow, and others are indoctrinated. These two conditions make it hard to teach and learn how to attain reasoned judgement.

I have the impression there are few Muslim intellectuals, as post enlightenment people define 'intellectuals'. So when Muslims learn the Koran off by heart and repeat it in prayers, they are doing a ritual that they believe is virtuous. Many Xians do so too with regards to The Bible and ritual praying.And many Xians believe the historical Jesus is the same as the Christ of faith.

For historical reasons there is a higher percentile of Muslims than Xians for whom their religious sect is a sign of and signals their ethnicity.This situation often correlates with rural populations who have not met the sophisticated education available in cities.

[Veritas Aequitas]

Btw, it would be appropriate for you to counter each point above first before you deviate to something else.

1.I agree on condition the men know the terms and the import of the contract.

Thanks for the your very systematic and orderly responses.
Once a person has signed a contract voluntarily, "ignorance is no defense".
Note the common rejection of insurance claims where the claimants were ignorant of the terms of the contract in 'small prints.'

2.I don't know. Has anybody done a census?

There is no official census in determining the majority of Muslims are desperate for salvation.
However if one were to read widely, the critical element in all religions has something to do with the worry of mortality [Buddhism] and the afterlife [Abrahamic and other theistic religion].

From my detailed research >35% of the 6236 verses of the Quran are devoted to soteriological matters. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soteriology
If you read the Quran thoroughly the main theme of the Quran is about salvation and to safeguard the promise of salvation Muslims are commanded to protect it at all costs including killing oneself and killing non-Muslims at the slightest threats to their salvation.

3.My understanding is the intellectual contract is not all that important for Muslims. I understand what is important for Muslims is to do certain religious observances such as the stipulated prayers, and the Haj. This sort of religion of praxis contrasts with Xianity which demands the Xian believe especially in belief in the Resurrection event.

It is not a matter of understanding the contract intellectually but compliance with the terms of contracts that promised salvation which is the most critical element for any Muslim.
The majority of Muslims are ignorant of what is fully required of them from Allah as stipulated in their contract. [but note ignorance is no defense]. However, it is stated in the Quran, the Quran is easy to read and understand, so no excuses when the Muslim meet Allah on Judgment Day.

Nope, faith, prayers, haj, charity [to muslims only], & fasting are merely part of the 5 pillars of Islam which are kindergarten stuffs and the most superficial for a Muslim to practice, and that will not merit the greater rewards promised by Allah in the Quran.
For a Muslim to reach higher grades [stipulate in the Quran], a Muslim must graduate to practice the 6 pillars of Iman
https://madrasatelquran.com/the-six-pil ... -in-islam/
and the various disciples of Taqwa. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqwa

Suggest you update yourself on the above since your knowledge of Islam is limited to the 5 pillars of Islam - the kindergarten stuff. This will give you one critical step up notch to your knowledge of Islam.

Once a Muslim graduate to the levels of the 6 pillars of Iman and Taqwa, there is where a Muslim become a serious believers and will strive to comply with as much as possible to the tenets and commands of Allah which include all the meritorious higher duty and commands which is good for the Muslim but evil for the rest of humanity. This will include the religious obligations as contracted to kill and harm non-Muslims upon the slightest threats to the religion.

Within the higher levels of being a Muslim, one is obligated to spread the message and here is where the learned has to preach. [note Averroes' desperate proselytizing here] Unfortunately the evil prones will be obligated and zealously teach other Muslims the right doctrines, i.e. the evil elements to kill and harm non-Muslims who are already a threat to the religion of Islam.

4. I agree and this is what I mean by the closing of the gate of ijtihad.

The terms of the contract must be complied as it is.
If Allah commanded in the Quran to kill and harm non-Muslims upon the slightest threat to the religion, there is no room for compromise or ijtihad.
Many Muslims accused [rightly so] ijtihad as bi'dah or innovations against the words of Allah thus a serious sin and heresy against Islam.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bid%CA%BBah
This is why many attempts to imbue humane approach and rationality into Islam over the 1400 years of Islamic history was never successful at all and many were killed as heretics.

5.The ' Muslims' of ISIS would say so too. But they are either political liars, or they have been seduced.

WHO ARE YOU and what authority do you have to judge them?
No Muslim or anyone except Allah can judge the individual Muslim's acts which will be done on judgment day.

The Muslims of ISIS are very objective in their compliance with the commands of Allah and they would not dare to act unilaterally without reference to the commands of Allah in the Quran. [this is one of the 6 pillars of Imam].
If Allah stipulated in the Quran, do X, they will MUST do X without deviations and compromise.
Somehow the jihadists, the terrorists and Muslims of ISIS are the one who will quote the verses of the Quran precisely and objectively [without twisting] to justify their acts against non-Muslims and other Muslims they deemed as hypocrites.

The point is,
since no one on Earth can judge the acts of the Muslims of ISIS, they will continue to carry out their duty in accordance to the terms of the contract in the Quran which they have entered into with Allah.

Yours and other condemnations of the Muslims of ISIS will not be able to change or prevent the terrible evil and violence they will commit in the future.
Note ISIS is basically not driven politically but the individuals got together to secure their passage of salvation to eternal life driven by their contractual obligation to Allah who promised them eternal life when they comply with ALL his commands in the Quran.

6.I don't know the percentile of men who are psychopaths. I don't think anyone does. I do believe a) an authoritarian religion can help to control psychopathic behaviour and b) Most people can learn new ideas. Some learners are slow, and others are indoctrinated. These two conditions make it hard to teach and learn how to attain reasoned judgement.

The active tendency of being evil prone is not confined to psychopaths. Generally it is accepted from the psychology and psychiatric community, the % of psychopath is around 1%.
What I mean by a percentile of evil prones include those who are easily influenced to kill and harm other humans when presented with a God that sanction evil and violence upon others.
The problem with Islam is, it has an authoritarian God that sanction the killing and harming of non-Muslims who are the slightest threat to the religion.

I have the impression there are few Muslim intellectuals, as post enlightenment people define 'intellectuals'. So when Muslims learn the Koran off by heart and repeat it in prayers, they are doing a ritual that they believe is virtuous. Many Xians do so too with regards to The Bible and ritual praying.And many Xians believe the historical Jesus is the same as the Christ of faith.

For historical reasons there is a higher percentile of Muslims than Xians for whom their religious sect is a sign of and signals their ethnicity.This situation often correlates with rural populations who have not met the sophisticated education available in cities.

The point with Islam is, the higher intellectual a Muslim is the greater awareness of the obligating contractual terms [especially the evil laden ones] he has to comply with to gain his merit for salvation to paradise and eternal life.

I believe many learned Muslims will suppress the evil elements they learn or many would be convert out of Islam. This is very evident all over the internet where Muslims become ex-Muslims because they cannot tolerate the evil_ness within the ideology of Islam.

But there is the reality of a pool of 20% or 300 million evil prone Muslims who will not hesitate to comply what is stipulated in the Quran to kill and harm non-Muslims so that they can be assured of their passport to paradise and eternal life.

[Belinda]

For all I know you may be correct, Veritas Aequitas. However what is to be done to ensure potentially criminal religionists keep within national laws?

Should free nations tolerate religious insignia in public places, such as face veils, or not? To what extent should we curtail free speech?

There have been no serious attempts on the part of authorities to allow sharia law the same status as national law.

ISIS is a criminal organisation all over the world. What is the best method of stopping ISIS recruiting fresh members? One problem is that ISIS is not centrally organised it's a loose network and if you chop one of its heads off there are others still alive.

Our resident 'Muslim' is not an Islamic scholar and has liked to promote the tribalism. His main interest in Islam seems to be about breaking up statues.

Sunni Muslims include 84%–90% of all Muslims. Sunni means “tradition,” and Sunnis regard themselves as those who emphasize following the traditions of Muhammad and of the first two generations of the community of Muslims that followed Muhammad.

A number of movements to reform Islam have originated mainly in the 20th century. Some are limited to one country and others have a broader influence. Most are Sunni movements, such as the Wahhabis, the Muslim Brotherhood, and Jama`at-i-Islami.

Shi`ite Muslims comprise 10%–16% of all Muslims. Shi`ites are the “party of `Ali,” who believe that Muhammad’s son-in-law `Ali was his designated successor (imam) and that the Muslim community should be headed by a designated descendent of Muhammad. Three main subgroups of Shi`ites are Twelvers (Ithna-`Asharis), Seveners (Isma`ilis), and Fivers (Zaydis).

Sufis are Islamic mystics. Sufis go beyond external requirements of the religion to seek a personal experience of God through forms of meditation and spiritual growth. A number of Sufi orders, comparable to Christian monastic orders, exist. Most Sufis are also Sunni Muslims, although some are Shi`ite Muslims. Many conservative Sunni Muslims regard Sufism as a corruption of Islam, although most still regard Sufis as Muslims.

Baha’is and Ahmadiyyas are 19th-century offshoots of Shi`ite and Sunni Islam, respectively. Bahai’s consider themselves the newest of the major world’s religions but recognize that historically they originated from Shi`ite Islam in the same way that Christianity originated from Judaism. Ahmadiyyas do regard themselves as Muslims. Most other Muslims, however, deny that either group is a legitimate form of Islam and regard members of both groups as heretics — people who have corrupted and abandoned Islamic belief and practice.

Druze, Alevis, and `Alawis are small, sectarian groups with unorthodox beliefs and practices that split off from Islam. Druze and Alevis do not regard themselves as Muslims and are not considered Muslims by other Muslims. `Alawis have various non-Islamic practices, but debate continues as to whether they should still be considered Muslims.

https://www.dummies.com/religion/islam/ ... mic-sects/

[Veritas Aequitas]

For all I know you may be correct, Veritas Aequitas. However what is to be done to ensure potentially criminal religionists keep within national laws?

Should free nations tolerate religious insignia in public places, such as face veils, or not? To what extent should we curtail free speech?

There have been no serious attempts on the part of authorities to allow sharia law the same status as national law.

Point is I have done extensive research, sound arguments and reflections to support whatever claims I am making.

Macron is trying to do something at present in France to tame Islamism but is facing serious resistance.
But ultimately the "religion of peace" has to go gradually because it is inherently evil laden and its doctrines are immutable till eternity.

ISIS is a criminal organisation all over the world. What is the best method of stopping ISIS recruiting fresh members? One problem is that ISIS is not centrally organised it's a loose network and if you chop one of its heads off there are others still alive.

Our resident 'Muslim' is not an Islamic scholar and has liked to promote the tribalism. His main interest in Islam seems to be about breaking up statues.

The focus is not on "ISIS" which is only a temporary collection of zealous and evil prone Muslims.
The focus is on how Islam has made Muslims into zombies and killing machines.

The fact with Islam and Muslims is the individual Muslims when entrapped by Islam to gain salvation, they are contracted to be potentially evil prone.
These Muslims in a way are like grasshoppers where as individuals they are harmless but when the right conditions are present they trigger them to swarm and destroy whatever is in their path.
One swarm may dissipate after certain time, but there are loads of potential swarms from a pool of >1.5 Muslims [300 millions are evil prone] around the world.

But in a another way, the desperate individual Muslim [loner] is also a potential threat to humanity; note the number of individual-Muslims who had carried very serious suicide bombings that had killed many.

The solution is to understand Islam via its core, the Quran and understand its objectives for what they are, especially the evil laden elements that are a threat to humanity as evident throughout Islam's 1400 history.

https://www.dummies.com/religion/islam/ ... mic-sects/

Whatever the sect, Islam is grounded on its core constitution, i.e. the Quran.

The Ahamadiyas are Muslims are the core as contracted with Allah, but what they are practicing is pseudo-Islam because they believe their leader is also a prophet which is against the Quran's command that Muhammad is the last and final prophet.

[Belinda]

Regarding your previous post, Veritas A,

Once a person has signed a contract voluntarily, "ignorance is no defense".
Note the common rejection of insurance claims where the claimants were ignorant of the terms of the contract in 'small prints.'

There was a time during the history of God as described in the Old Testament when, besides a man's actions, God recognised and considered a man's intentions .Allah knows everyone's thoughts, intentions, and actions.

Secular law comes from religious morality and it lags behind religious morality. The secular law has to be more punitive and more simplistic than God's law.The secular law cannot afford infinite justice but must arbitrate. Certain sects are more arbitrary than others.These sects are like "We bloody-well know what God's justice is as He has intervened to let us know what His justice is." You don't need to be very clever to see that attitude to justice leaves the way wide open to religious dictatorship.
I trust you will understand this line of reasoning tends to endorse your opinion of the Quran and Muslims' attitudes. So it does. However , besides drawing attention to the history of God belief, my point is that any religion , including as we have seen Buddhism, can be used in such a way as to legitimate dictatorial authority. That Islam is generally authoritarian can hardly be disputed. The fact that Amaddiya and Sufi are not acceptable as proper Islam bears out that normal Sunni and Shia are authoritarian. However the great majority of Muslims are law- abiding and hard working citizens, and that is as much as any regime can reasonably demand.

With increasing educational opportunities more and more Muslims will be able to regard the Koran as a historical document .

[Veritas Aequitas]

Regarding your previous post, Veritas A,

Once a person has signed a contract voluntarily, "ignorance is no defense".
Note the common rejection of insurance claims where the claimants were ignorant of the terms of the contract in 'small prints.'

There was a time during the history of God as described in the Old Testament when, besides a man's actions, God recognised and considered a man's intentions .Allah knows everyone's thoughts, intentions, and actions.

Secular law comes from religious morality and it lags behind religious morality. The secular law has to be more punitive and more simplistic than God's law.The secular law cannot afford infinite justice but must arbitrate. Certain sects are more arbitrary than others.These sects are like "We bloody-well know what God's justice is as He has intervened to let us know what His justice is." You don't need to be very clever to see that attitude to justice leaves the way wide open to religious dictatorship.
I trust you will understand this line of reasoning tends to endorse your opinion of the Quran and Muslims' attitudes. So it does. However , besides drawing attention to the history of God belief, my point is that any religion , including as we have seen Buddhism, can be used in such a way as to legitimate dictatorial authority. That Islam is generally authoritarian can hardly be disputed. The fact that Amaddiya and Sufi are not acceptable as proper Islam bears out that normal Sunni and Shia are authoritarian. However the great majority of Muslims are law- abiding and hard working citizens, and that is as much as any regime can reasonably demand.

Note all legitimate dictatorial authority [as with all organization and ideologies] are based on their specific constitution [explicit or implied].

As such all religion has their own specific constitution [in their holy texts from a God or otherwise (Buddhism)].
The constitution of Buddhism is centered on empathy and compassion to all sentient beings.

Dictatorial' is often associated with no freedom for individual and tied with cruelty, evil and violence to those who oppose the dictatorial leader.

As such, it is would be contradictory to mix the constitution of Buddhism [centered on compassion] with any 'dictatorial' authoritarian system.
Therefore if there is a mix of dictatorial authority with Buddhism, e.g. in Myanmar or previously in Thailand, it is only apparent, there is no way Buddhism-proper can legitimize any dictatorial authority.

On the other hand if a Government subsumed the Quran and its law as within it own laws, then they are compatible within a dictatorial regime since there are no potential contradiction.
In this case there are two constitutions involved, e.g. in Saudi Arabia,
-they have their overall constitution of the Nation of Saudi Arabia,
-within their national constitution, they subsumed Allah's law [from Quran] in totality - i.e. the Islamic constitution.

In this case, whatever is stipulated in the Quran, the Saudi Government must act in accordance to whatever is commanded in the Quran.
This is why the pure Islamic nations cannot be friendly with secular government other than on pretense which the Quran permit under certain circumstances.

With increasing educational opportunities more and more Muslims will be able to regard the Koran as a historical document .

If "Muslims" are to treat the Quran as a historical document, then by Allah's definition they are no more a Muslim.
As long as Muslims are driven toward salvation and believe Allah is their savior, it would be an insult to the all-powerful Allah to take the Quran as a historical document.

The Quran would only be a historical document [which is baseless*] only when there are no more religious Muslims.
Serious researchers have found the Quran to be deprived a real critical historical facts but rather is full of historical falsehoods.

* There was no Mecca before 400AD and many other historical falsehoods;
Is Mecca In The Wrong Place? (Global Documentary) | Real Stories]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CavacGECZ0

[Belinda]

Veritas Aequitas wrote:

Dictatorial' is often associated with no freedom for individual and tied with cruelty, evil and violence to those who oppose the dictatorial leader.

As such, it is would be contradictory to mix the constitution of Buddhism [centered on compassion] with any 'dictatorial' authoritarian system.
Therefore if there is a mix of dictatorial authority with Buddhism, e.g. in Myanmar or previously in Thailand, it is only apparent, there is no way Buddhism-proper can legitimize any dictatorial authority.

On the other hand if a Government subsumed the Quran and its law as within it own laws, then they are compatible within a dictatorial regime since there are no potential contradiction.
In this case there are two constitutions involved, e.g. in Saudi Arabia,
-they have their overall constitution of the Nation of Saudi Arabia,
-within their national constitution, they subsumed Allah's law [from Quran] in totality - i.e. the Islamic constitution.

In this case, whatever is stipulated in the Quran, the Saudi Government must act in accordance to whatever is commanded in the Quran.
This is why the pure Islamic nations cannot be friendly with secular government other than on pretense which the Quran permit under certain circumstances.

Buddhism despite its peaceful and reasonable psychological approach to religion, has been traduced even by Buddhist monks. In the enlightened west our secularism is based on Xian morality with its ethic of protecting the underdog, and so in the case of the Rohingya Muslims we generally condemn Buddhists' atrocities against the Rohingya people. Buddhism apparently can be used by a military dictatorship.

please read:

https://foreignpolicy.com/2012/09/17/au ... m-problem/

In the case of Saudi Arabia the established religion is not only Sunni it's also Wahhabi.

Saudi Arabia is the birthplace of Islam, and most of its natives are adherents of the majority Sunni branch. In modern times, the Wahhābī interpretation of Sunni Islam has been especially influential, and Muslim scholars espousing that sect’s views have been a major social and political force. Wahhābism, as it is called in the West (members refer to themselves as muwaḥḥidūn, “unitarians”), is a strict interpretation of the Ḥanbalī school of Islamic jurisprudence and is named for Muḥammad ibn ʿAbd al-Wahhāb (1703–92), a religious scholar whose alliance with Ibn Saud led to the establishment of the first Saʿūdī state

.

Britannica

The Saudis are the friends of the UK as long as the Saudis buy armaments from us. The Saudi elite will enforce strict Wahhabi religion as long as that religion helps to control the masses. Religions are all of them subsections of general culture, but religions are not tacked-on to the general culture.

Now and again there arise cults like Scientology, Branch Davidians, or Heaven's Gate. Such as those are permitted as long as members and constitution are legal, but we can be sure all states keep an eye on them.

Cultures originate with the economics of the material subsistence of the society and are maintained by glorified myths that support that culture. Glorified myths typify religions.

[Averroes]

How Trinity is possible if Son is united to Father but Father is the highest and knows certain things, like the end of time, that Son doesn't know?

There is an interesting discussion of a Jewish rabbi by the name rabbi Tovia Singer who has expressed something on the subject of the trinity that I found to be worth mentioning at this point. Here is the link to the YouTube video where you can watch it if you are interested :https://youtu.be/ZjQUSK12tTo

I have reproduced parts of the discussion below.

Rabbi Tovia Singer said:

• (...) So Christianity definitely falls into the area of idolatry, utterly and completely. And a Jew in fact is called upon to give his/her life rather than convert to Christianity, which many thousands of Jews did throughout history. Islam has a very unique status, and Islam is definitely not idolatry. Muslims worship One God. (...) Islam has a very unique status in that they are not idol worhippers. (...) A Jew is not even allowed to walk into a Church. A Jew, lets say is visiting Italy and wants to just see and admire its architecture or to see its flying buttresses; [it's] absolutely forbidden to even compliment it. We are not even allowed to talk about it. A Jew cannot even enter a Trinitarian Church.
  A Jew can ask a Mosque: would you mind when you are not using the Mosque, if we can use it to pray our mourning prayers, ie can we borrow your mosque? We are absolutely permitted to because it is not a place of idolatry, they worship One God.
  (...) Islam is absolutely not idolatry and most Christians are worshiping idolatry because they are trinitarians. I should say as a caveat that there are some Christian denominations that absolutely reject the doctrine of the trinitytrinity forcefully: Christadelphians, Unitarians, Jehovah Witnesses for examples. They utterly reject the doctrine of the trinity and they consider it complete idolatry incidently.

[attofishpi]

How Trinity is possible if Son is united to Father but Father is the highest and knows certain things, like the end of time, that Son doesn't know?

There is an interesting discussion of a Jewish rabbi by the name rabbi Tovia Singer who has expressed something on the subject of the trinity that I found to be worth mentioning at this point. Here is the link to the YouTube video where you can watch it if you are interested :https://youtu.be/ZjQUSK12tTo

I have reproduced parts of the discussion below.

Rabbi Tovia Singer said:

• (...) So Christianity definitely falls into the area of idolatry, utterly and completely. And a Jew in fact is called upon to give his/her life rather than convert to Christianity, which many thousands of Jews did throughout history. Islam has a very unique status, and Islam is definitely not idolatry. Muslims worship One God. (...) Islam has a very unique status in that they are not idol worhippers. (...) A Jew is not even allowed to walk into a Church. A Jew, lets say is visiting Italy and wants to just see and admire its architecture or to see its flying buttresses; [it's] absolutely forbidden to even compliment it. We are not even allowed to talk about it. A Jew cannot even enter a Trinitarian Church.
  A Jew can ask a Mosque: would you mind when you are not using the Mosque, if we can use it to pray our mourning prayers, ie can we borrow your mosque? We are absolutely permitted to because it is not a place of idolatry, they worship One God.
  (...) Islam is absolutely not idolatry and most Christians are worshiping idolatry because they are trinitarians. I should say as a caveat that there are some Christian denominations that absolutely reject the doctrine of the trinitytrinity forcefully: Christadelphians, Unitarians, Jehovah Witnesses for examples. They utterly reject the doctrine of the trinity and they consider it complete idolatry incidently.

I don't think U R quite getting this. A Jew can do whatever the f**k a Jew wants to do, a Christian can do whatever the f**k a Christian wants to do...indeed they can actually think for themselves without having to worry about those of there own 'faith' taking it upon themselves to chop their heads off, or blow them up...just for thinking beyond any constraints insisted by their 'faith'.

U R just anuva cheap arse salesman Averroes, everyone sees it...attempting to sell THE most shonky of all the monotheistic religions - an extremely poorly adapted version of Judaism and Christianity put together by your peadophile warlord - MorHamMad.

[Averroes]

I don't think U R quite getting this. A Jew can do whatever the f**k a Jew wants to do

You seem to be getting angry again attofishpi. I cannot stress enough the fact that anger will ruin your physical and mental well-being.
By the way, I am not selling anything on the forum. Everything that I post here is free of charge. Don't worry, I am not asking you or anyone here for payment. So, relax yourself and take it easy. I was responding to the OP on the subject of the Trinity and this is why I am here in the first place. It's nothing personal against you. Rabbi Tovia Singer has discussed this subject, so this is why I was quoting him. I quote him again.

Rabbi Tovia Singer said:

• (...) So Christianity definitely falls into the area of idolatry, utterly and completely. And a Jew in fact is called upon to give his/her life rather than convert to Christianity, which many thousands of Jews did throughout history. Islam has a very unique status, and Islam is definitely not idolatry. Muslims worship One God. (...) Islam has a very unique status in that they are not idol worhippers. (...) A Jew is not even allowed to walk into a Church. A Jew, lets say is visiting Italy and wants to just see and admire its architecture or to see its flying buttresses; [it's] absolutely forbidden to even compliment it. We are not even allowed to talk about it. A Jew cannot even enter a Trinitarian Church.
  A Jew can ask a Mosque: would you mind when you are not using the Mosque, if we can use it to pray our mourning prayers, ie can we borrow your mosque? We are absolutely permitted to because it is not a place of idolatry, they worship One God.
  (...) Islam is absolutely not idolatry and most Christians are worshiping idolatry because they are trinitarians. I should say as a caveat that there are some Christian denominations that absolutely reject the doctrine of the trinitytrinity forcefully: Christadelphians, Unitarians, Jehovah Witnesses for examples. They utterly reject the doctrine of the trinity and they consider it complete idolatry incidently.

[attofishpi]

I don't think U R quite getting this. A Jew can do whatever the f**k a Jew wants to do

You seem to be getting angry again attofishpi.

Again? Every time you have presumed that, I have been borderline laughing.

I cannot stress enough the fact that anger will ruin your physical and mental well-being.
By the way, I am not selling anything on the forum. Everything that I post here is free of charge. Don't worry, I am not asking you or anyone here for payment. So, relax yourself and take it easy. I was responding to the OP on the subject of the Trinity and this is why I am here in the first place. It's nothing personal against you.

Ooooh. Thanks, I can relieve myself now.

Rabbi Tovia Singer has discussed this subject, so this is why I was quoting him. I quote him again.

What is a 'Rabbi' - some sort of rabbit?

I know a pastor is a rot_sap

So.

Rabbi Tovia Singer said:

• (...) So Christianity definitely falls into the area of idolatry, utterly and completely. And a Jew in fact is called upon to give his/her life rather than convert to Christianity, which many thousands of Jews did throughout history. Islam has a very unique status, and Islam is definitely not idolatry. Muslims worship One God. (...) Islam has a very unique status in that they are not idol worhippers. (...) A Jew is not even allowed to walk into a Church. A Jew, lets say is visiting Italy and wants to just see and admire its architecture or to see its flying buttresses; [it's] absolutely forbidden to even compliment it. We are not even allowed to talk about it. A Jew cannot even enter a Trinitarian Church.
  A Jew can ask a Mosque: would you mind when you are not using the Mosque, if we can use it to pray our mourning prayers, ie can we borrow your mosque? We are absolutely permitted to because it is not a place of idolatry, they worship One God.
  (...) Islam is absolutely not idolatry and most Christians are worshiping idolatry because they are trinitarians. I should say as a caveat that there are some Christian denominations that absolutely reject the doctrine of the trinitytrinity forcefully: Christadelphians, Unitarians, Jehovah Witnesses for examples. They utterly reject the doctrine of the trinity and they consider it complete idolatry incidently.

....am I supposed to read beyond:- Christianity definitely falls into the area of idolatry, utterly and completely. ??

Y don't U TEST me, and allow me TEST U?

...LETS TEST GOD\ALLAH....YES?