The Philosophy Discussion Forum

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu May 07, 2026 6:56 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu May 07, 2026 6:53 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu May 07, 2026 6:44 pm

No I don't think it's fair that I enjoy privileges that most people don't have. Do you think it's fair that you enjoy privileges that others don't have?

Well, I believe in God, so I can believe that "fairness" is a real thing, and that justice can require it. But you don't believe in God...so why do you believe "fairness" even exists? Who promised you that you had a right to "fairness," or said what it would consist of?

Now you're just making stuff up. You have to believe that no "fairness" exists, or was ever promised to you. There's no justice, and no standard by which justice could even be known.

So nothing has ever been "unfair" to you, or to anybody else. That's what you'd have to believe: that there's no such concept.

Fairness is a real thing whether a person believes in God or not.

Give me your grounds for thinking "fairness" is a real thing. Who promised it to you? Who taught you the standard of what's "fair"? What right do you have to expect it?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu May 07, 2026 6:58 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu May 07, 2026 6:56 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu May 07, 2026 6:53 pm
Well, I believe in God, so I can believe that "fairness" is a real thing, and that justice can require it. But you don't believe in God...so why do you believe "fairness" even exists? Who promised you that you had a right to "fairness," or said what it would consist of?

Now you're just making stuff up. You have to believe that no "fairness" exists, or was ever promised to you. There's no justice, and no standard by which justice could even be known.

So nothing has ever been "unfair" to you, or to anybody else. That's what you'd have to believe: that there's no such concept.

Fairness is a real thing whether a person believes in God or not.

Give me your grounds for thinking "fairness" is a real thing. Who promised it to you? Who taught you the standard of what's "fair"? What right do you have to expect it?

fairness isn't based on anyone's "promise". If all other things are equal and one person has more than another, then it is unfair. If you need a God to help you determine that, then you're a stupid, ignorant twat. Do you think you wouldn't be able to wipe your own ass after taking a shit if there was no God to tell you to do it?

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu May 07, 2026 7:01 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu May 07, 2026 6:58 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu May 07, 2026 6:56 pm

Fairness is a real thing whether a person believes in God or not.

Give me your grounds for thinking "fairness" is a real thing. Who promised it to you? Who taught you the standard of what's "fair"? What right do you have to expect it?

If all other things are equal and one person has more than another, then it is unfair.

Who promised you "equality"?

You're not equally tall, equally athletic, equally smart, equally well-born, equally cultured, equally educated, equally healthy, equally equipped, or equally anything else with even one other person on the planet. Not one. There's no equality. Who promised you there would be? And what makes you think it's "unfair"? It's just how it is, that's all...that's what you've got to believe.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu May 07, 2026 7:06 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu May 07, 2026 7:01 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu May 07, 2026 6:58 pm
Give me your grounds for thinking "fairness" is a real thing. Who promised it to you? Who taught you the standard of what's "fair"? What right do you have to expect it?

If all other things are equal and one person has more than another, then it is unfair.

Who promised you "equality"?

You're not equally tall, equally athletic, equally smart, equally well-born, equally cultured, equally educated, equally healthy, equally equipped, or equally anything else with even one other person on the planet. Not one. There's no equality. Who promised you there would be? And what makes you think it's "unfair"? It's just how it is, that's all...that's what you've got to believe.

No one promised me equality. However, that doesn't make everything equal does it? Equality is a state of affairs that humans don't need God to tell us when or when it isn't. Apparently, the Bible doesn't even promise anyone equality, so it can't come from God anyway, it's a human value. God is not your sugar daddy. You can do some things without the help of God. Get used to it.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu May 07, 2026 7:10 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu May 07, 2026 7:06 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu May 07, 2026 7:01 pm
If all other things are equal and one person has more than another, then it is unfair.

Who promised you "equality"?

You're not equally tall, equally athletic, equally smart, equally well-born, equally cultured, equally educated, equally healthy, equally equipped, or equally anything else with even one other person on the planet. Not one. There's no equality. Who promised you there would be? And what makes you think it's "unfair"? It's just how it is, that's all...that's what you've got to believe.

No one promised me equality. However, that doesn't make everything equal does it?

It means you have not even the tiniest grounds for complaint. Nothing's supposed to be equal, and nothing is. Get over it. The universe doesn't care a fig what you think or want, or what anybody else thinks or wants, either.

That's the world you think you live in.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu May 07, 2026 6:58 pm Give me your grounds for thinking "fairness" is a real thing. Who promised it to you? Who taught you the standard of what's "fair"? What right do you have to expect it?

Whoa -- two things at once.

a)"Fairness" being a real thing, something for which we humans have a "built in" evaluator. We KNOW thehter a pie is being divided fairly or not. As obligatory social animals it is important that we be able to perform that evaluation since we have to know/predict how others might act.

b) NOT something promised to us. We are simply deciding whether fair or not. What happens next, how we will act or not act, how others will act or not act, etc. that depends on lots of other factors besides "fairness".

MikeNovack wrote: ↑Thu May 07, 2026 8:58 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu May 07, 2026 6:58 pm Give me your grounds for thinking "fairness" is a real thing. Who promised it to you? Who taught you the standard of what's "fair"? What right do you have to expect it?

Whoa -- two things at once.

a)"Fairness" being a real thing, something for which we humans have a "built in" evaluator. We KNOW thehter a pie is being divided fairly or not. As obligatory social animals it is important that we be able to perform that evaluation since we have to know/predict how others might act.

But that doesn't even come close to suggesting we are owed "equality." All you're saying is "We know when things aren't equal." Yes, we do. In fact, we should know that they're never genuinely equal, for any two persons.

But so what? Who says we're owed it? Our problem is not one of knowledge; it's one of justification.

b) NOT something promised to us. We are simply deciding whether fair or not.

"Fair" is a moral term. But secularly, there is no objective morality. So we cannot say "Inequality is unfair." All we can say is "Inequality is how things are."

We're back exactly where we started: with precisely zero grounds for any complaint about "inequality" or "unfairness." According to secularism, that's just how things are.

“All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others”

-Imp

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu May 07, 2026 7:24 pm The universe doesn't care a fig what you think or want, or what anybody else thinks or wants, either.

No shit, Sherlock. Did you just now figure that out. I could have told you that many psychoses ago. So don't give me shit about life not being fair. And fuckoff!

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Fri May 08, 2026 10:02 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu May 07, 2026 7:24 pm The universe doesn't care a fig what you think or want, or what anybody else thinks or wants, either.

No shit, Sherlock. Did you just now figure that out. I could have told you that many psychoses ago. So don't give me shit about life not being fair. And fuckoff!

Oh but God is "benevolent", right? Dumbass.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Fri May 08, 2026 10:02 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu May 07, 2026 7:24 pm The universe doesn't care a fig what you think or want, or what anybody else thinks or wants, either.

No shit, Sherlock. Did you just now figure that out. I could have told you that many psychoses ago. So don't give me shit about life not being fair. And fuckoff!

You see? That's the universe you've told yourself you live in. It's not a nice place. It is ultimately devoid of goodness or kindness or justice or mercy -- and it's no surprise if people act in it without those values...for they do not believe they exist or are compelling at all. They believe the universe is merely a cold, indifferent fact.

But it's also not the real universe. So don't give up hope; you may yet see past that initial illusion. There is a God, and He does care. Just stop telling yourself the comforting lie that you've inherited an unfair universe, and open yourself up to the possibility you've been wrong all along. Why can't there be a larger plan to all this, even if you don't happen to hold the blueprint in your hands? Who promised you that you should?

If you don't see a pattern, how does that imply there isn't one? It doesn't, really. It's just a statement about your own situation as a limited, embodied, finite, temporal being, not about the actual truth of the universe itself. Nothing can actually be deduced from it about the order of the universe.

Freeze-framing this fella’s face throughout the talk tells some tales of the tale he tells. (dogged by doggeral)
Socialists do love their slick talkers, which is but one reason why they hate Trump.

https://twitter.com/i/status/2044508902809628760

50,000 unoccupied dwellings in NYC.

Too expensive for the landlords to bring them up to specifications.
No return for the investment to fix them up, and the units in one building should be functional according to humanitarian standards because living in deteriorating conditions does not meet that standard.

What is the solution?

Build one less high-tech battleship and use that money to solve the entire problem in one fell swoop?

It would require a generous, strings-attached gift to the landlords.

That would not sit well with the socialists, would it. Bad narrative for the cause.

Give that battleship in cash to the people, for the Squandering, soon to have a special celebration day, and a day off with pay.

Call it ... reparations.

Better yet, make the promise and then tie up the construction by taking all that battleship with fees for permits and inspections, and to insure everything goes smoothly with no problemos, like they do in California.

except in California, they give it to the illegals

-Imp

Walker wrote: ↑Fri May 08, 2026 1:45 pm
Give that battleship in cash to the people, for the Squandering, soon to have a special celebration day, and a day off with pay.

You might be forgiven thinking that. It seems so reasonable. That the result would be squandering with no lasting changes.

HOWEVER -- this experiment has actually been done in a number of places, a random sample of people on assistance being given an extra lump sum. The result was not what you, or most other people expect. I know that you, like most people, will not believe this positive outcome, so look up for yourself.

I do not believe it is yet known WHY the result is so positive for a sizeable fraction. Keep in mind that they still following up on results to determine how long lasting the effect. I have my suspicions about why it works but those would only be a guess and I am not a sociologist.