What is the concept of God philosophically?

[henry quirk]

It often suffices for me too, but not all the time.

Same here.

[Belinda]

It often suffices for me too, but not all the time.

Same here.

[Martin Peter Clarke]

Ultimately what is of importance is not the words themselves, but the underlying concepts conveyed by those words.

What are those underlying concepts?

Liza?

Just a joke...Martin understands.

: ) dear Henry, dear Henry

[Lacewing]

Love is love.
Truth is truth.
Stop redefining these terms and inserting this bullshit.
Why is the concept ‘God’ necessary for this equation?

It's not. Nicely said.

[Lacewing]

it is fascinating to consider Jesus' words in a broader perspective... free of religious distortion and constraints. There is SO MUCH MORE beyond religious constraints! And it is not to be feared. It is the distortions that 'could be feared' most of all.

They come with religious distortion and restraint. His. He gave us hell and damnation. Or his authors did. As well as the social gospel which is totally ignored. But what does any of this have to do with the concept of God philosophically? Apart from his? I.e. religious distortion and restraint.

The concept of God (in large part, it seems to me) is a product of religion... which serves the religion.

In contrast, the recognition and reverence of being part of a whole system -- and seeing ALL as divine throughout that -- is not based on ideas of separation, exclusion, and hierarchy. I got the impression that Jesus was inclusive and urged others to recognize the divinity of themselves and others. Naturally, as a human being of his time and place, he may have struggled to reconcile the common fast-held beliefs with what he perceived and wanted to share -- and to use language and imagery that people might understand and relate to. I imagine it was as an enlightened master speaking to fearful sheep. Probably not easy (if even possible) to bridge that gap.

My impression is that Jesus was beyond the confines of religion... and was not actually speaking of the same conceptual god that was created by religion.

[ThinkOfOne]

Jesus did not "think of himself as uniquely the son of God". Nor did Jesus think of Himself as being literally a son of God. There's way too much evidence to the contrary. I can lay it out for you if you're interested.

Jesus is poorly understood and poorly represented. Especially by Christianity. It's tragic. It's the underlying reason why so many Christians throughout history and even today are so "unlike Christ". Perhaps, especially today.

It was one of the major themes across the four gospels: many of the Jews did not understand Him; most of the time His "disciples" did not understand Him. The vast majority of Christians today do not understand Him.

Those have been my impressions too. Even as a kid growing up in a Christian church, I noticed that well-meaning people were attributing things to Jesus that weren't aligned with the things he had apparently said -- and they were doing it because they could better understand the things they were making up. His concepts were too deep... and his love and awareness too great, perhaps... for people to fathom.

I remember feeling sadness at the realization that he felt alone, even among those who would have understood him best. And it seemed especially tragic (and even horrific) that people were twisting his message into something else. Then people put forth the story about this supposed separate god/entity, sacrificing his only son to save mankind... rather than admitting that it was a sad waste that Jesus was murdered because mankind was too stupid and threatened by enlightened thinking!

The fact that this distorted nonsense is being carried on even today is baffling! So much willful blindness. Although I try to have compassion for fearful people who are trying to do the right thing... there is much more going on that has nothing to do with the example that Jesus set... and it's dark and dangerous.

As Jesus apparently said, 'Forgive them, they know NOT what they do.' How TRUE.

Things they were making up? Or things that had been made up about Jesus that they were parroting?

In my experience they do it because it is self-serving to do so. For all intents and purposes Christians worship the God of Gimme: substitutionary atonement, forgiveness for the asking, etc. Even worse are the Christians who believe that no one can make themselves righteous because of the "fall of man" or what have you. In short, God is there to serve them - not the other way around.

Christians are extremely motivated to zealously hold on to those and other beliefs - no matter how contrary to the teachings of Jesus. As such, it's not baffling to me at all. But definitely sad as you say.

"Forgive them, they know NOT what they do" is too contrary to the teachings of Jesus as a whole for it to have been likely that He actually said that. There is no forgiveness without repentance. Where repentance entails ceasing to commit sin.

[ThinkOfOne]

Ultimately what is of importance is not the words themselves, but the underlying concepts conveyed by those words.

Yes, and the supposed actions and attitudes... revealing depth and authenticity.

A person's communication can only be interpreted on the level of the receiver... which may be quite shallow. You can't tell what someone will do with communications.

[For example, like someone who misinterprets what is being said by people on this forum and then builds entire arguments against that. It's his own distorted creation that he insists people refute to his satisfaction. I think this echoes how religious distortion operates: it doesn't really listen or understand -- it seeks only to comfort and validate itself by pretending to know that which it has made up.]

As such, whether or not Jesus actually said them is similarly unimportant.

By and large, those underlying concepts are reasonably sound and reasonably coherent. What's more, much of it is remarkably deep and quite profound. This is not true of the mythology and beliefs that the NT writers wrapped around them. At best, they merely echo those concepts. At worst, they deviate from those concepts and at times substantially so.

Yes, it is fascinating to consider Jesus' words in a broader perspective... free of religious distortion and constraints. There is SO MUCH MORE beyond religious constraints! And it is not to be feared. It is the distortions that 'could be feared' most of all.

Jesus repeatedly emphasized the importance of sincerely seeking to understand. Between that and the emphasis on humility, there is no valid excuse for Christians to not understand what Jesus was saying. In my experience the vast majority of Christians not only fail to bring sincerity and humility to the table, they have an aversion to what Jesus was saying. Yet most call themselves "followers of Jesus".

Yes. There seem to be quite a few posters on this forum who routinely make straw man arguments and employ other logical fallacies. Often this is accompanied by a willful ignorance.

[Age]

it is fascinating to consider Jesus' words in a broader perspective... free of religious distortion and constraints. There is SO MUCH MORE beyond religious constraints! And it is not to be feared. It is the distortions that 'could be feared' most of all.

They come with religious distortion and restraint. His. He gave us hell and damnation. Or his authors did. As well as the social gospel which is totally ignored. But what does any of this have to do with the concept of God philosophically? Apart from his? I.e. religious distortion and restraint.

The concept of God (in large part, it seems to me) is a product of religion... which serves the religion.

In contrast, the recognition and reverence of being part of a whole system -- and seeing ALL as divine throughout that -- is not based on ideas of separation, exclusion, and hierarchy.

Maybe not, but it is just 'another concept' of God though.

I got the impression that Jesus was inclusive and urged others to recognize the divinity of themselves and others. Naturally, as a human being of his time and place, he may have struggled to reconcile the common fast-held beliefs with what he perceived and wanted to share -- and to use language and imagery that people might understand and relate to. I imagine it was as an enlightened master speaking to fearful sheep. Probably not easy (if even possible) to bridge that gap.

And, no real difference 'today', neither.

My impression is that Jesus was beyond the confines of religion...

Although it was teaching 'belief', right?

and was not actually speaking of the same conceptual god that was created by religion.

What is the 'conceptual god', which was created by 'religion'?

How does 'that god' differ from 'jesus's" 'concept' of God, exactly?

And, how are you even defining the 'religion' word, here, exactly?

[Lacewing]

Things they were making up? Or things that had been made up about Jesus that they were parroting?

I think some of both.

In my experience they do it because it is self-serving to do so. For all intents and purposes Christians worship the God of Gimme: substitutionary atonement, forgiveness for the asking, etc. Even worse are the Christians who believe that no one can make themselves righteous because of the "fall of man" or what have you. In short, God is there to serve them - not the other way around.

I've said the same things. I think it turns into this for many believers... although initially people may be drawn to Christianity because they are seeking hope or they want to do the right thing. (There are always people who are exceptions to this harsh criticism, of course.) But, for many, the distorted religious beliefs/stories eventually block out any real exploration for truth behind it all. Such followers want to be seen as good Christians by their peers, and maybe superior to non-believers, so they stay within the well-worn tracks of make-believe. It doesn't matter that it doesn't make sense. A bunch of other people are alongside them on that Holy stage. We can all pretend whatever we want to.

Christians are extremely motivated to zealously hold on to those and other beliefs - no matter how contrary to the teachings of Jesus. As such, it's not baffling to me at all. But definitely sad as you say.

I'm baffled by willful ignorance and denial regardless of intriguing motivation.

"Forgive them, they know NOT what they do" is too contrary to the teachings of Jesus as a whole for it to have been likely that He actually said that. There is no forgiveness without repentance. Where repentance entails ceasing to commit sin.

But Jesus also had compassion for 'sinners', yes? So, I could see him saying 'forgive them' because he understood the human condition from a place of love. Like all men, he had inconsistencies in his behavior and words.

[Lacewing]

Jesus repeatedly emphasized the importance of sincerely seeking to understand. Between that and the emphasis on humility, there is no valid excuse for Christians to not understand what Jesus was saying.

If Christians critically questioned all of the nonsense, and held all of their supposed sources accountable, Christianity would be a very small sect because most people aren't really capable of living in those footsteps. It takes a lot of self-awareness and honesty to choose truth over comfort and ego, and to love unconditionally.

I think Christianity has really mangled its divine potential.

Now a large group of 'believers' have ushered in unspeakable horror (and 'evil' by their own Christian standards) in direct contradiction with their supposed Christian values. It's fucking insane.

And I wonder about the new Pope from the U.S. going up against the Burnt-Orange Destroyer... as if we are watching good and evil facing off on an epic Armageddon stage. Such a stupid waste for everyone. All because Christianity wrote the absurd story that they must now fulfill to insist they were right. In reality, however, they were lured to the opposite side from what they have pretended to be.

[Belinda]

Jesus repeatedly emphasized the importance of sincerely seeking to understand. Between that and the emphasis on humility, there is no valid excuse for Christians to not understand what Jesus was saying.

If Christians critically questioned all of the nonsense, and held all of their supposed sources accountable, Christianity would be a very small sect because most people aren't really capable of living in those footsteps. It takes a lot of self-awareness and honesty to choose truth over comfort and ego, and to love unconditionally.

I think Christianity has really mangled its divine potential.

Now a large group of 'believers' have ushered in unspeakable horror (and 'evil' by their own Christian standards) in direct contradiction with their supposed Christian values. It's fucking insane.

And I wonder about the new Pope from the U.S. going up against the Burnt-Orange Destroyer... as if we are watching good and evil facing off on an epic Armageddon stage. Such a stupid waste for everyone. All because Christianity wrote the absurd story that they must now fulfill to insist they were right. In reality, however, they were lured to the opposite side from what they have pretended to be.

What exactly are you predicting about Pope Leo? We are actually facing Armageddon.
It's not because of any Christian myth, or politicised Xianity that we face Armageddon . We face Armageddon because of because of man-made climate change and resulting fears for our safety.

[Impenitent]

the sky is falling... global warming... my god is better than your god...

we face Armageddon because some humans are better armed.

-Imp

[puto]

Is this thread supposed to be a philosophical concept of God of the Bible?

[Lacewing]

What exactly are you predicting about Pope Leo? We are actually facing Armageddon.
It's not because of any Christian myth, or politicised Xianity that we face Armageddon.

I'm referring to Armageddon as mentioned in the Bible and taught by religion -- a final struggle between good and evil -- 'place where the kings of the earth under demonic leadership will wage war on the forces of God at the end of history.'

Pope Leo might represent 'good' in that predicted scenario. Trump could represent 'the opposite to everything Christ-like (aka antichrist).' Perhaps the stage is being set. I think human beings are capable of manifesting all kinds of things, individually and collectively. Religion can be a vehicle for collective manifestations.

We face Armageddon because of man-made climate change and resulting fears for our safety.

Isn't climate change more about extinction than Armageddon?

[Lacewing]

Is this thread supposed to be a philosophical concept of God of the Bible?

The o.p. says: "So, what is your definition of God? This applies to both theists and atheists."

Doesn't seem limited to the Bible. At least, that's my impression.