Philosophy Now Forum

Harbal wrote: ↑Sat Feb 18, 2023 10:21 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Feb 18, 2023 10:10 pm
That should tell you all you need to know, given what Christ said.

But you won't find unity anywhere, on this planet. You will find some forced uniformity, in places like North Korea or Chinese prison camps, or gulags in Siberia. You'll also find Leftists who aim at unity by shaming, silencing and killing off all opposition. But you won't find unity. It's not a thing humans can produce.

I agree. There was no unity before Christ, and there hasn't been any since. It makes one wonder why he bothered.

Well, the story's not over yet. Let's see how it ends.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Feb 18, 2023 10:07 pm

There's been no unity in human history. There has been some forced uniformity, whenever some tyrant or despot could seize control

The only unity there ever will be is the unity people can have in Christ.

There used to be forced uniformity of religion back in the dark ages, and even now in some parts of the Middle East. Going backwards won't bring about a more harmonious world.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Feb 18, 2023 10:27 pm

Harbal wrote: ↑Sat Feb 18, 2023 10:21 pm
I agree. There was no unity before Christ, and there hasn't been any since. It makes one wonder why he bothered.

Well, the story's not over yet. Let's see how it ends.

I can't imagine what you are expecting.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Feb 18, 2023 10:12 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Feb 18, 2023 9:24 pm Apparently, your god fostered division to thwart the construction of the tower of babel.

You should look up what they were doing at that ziggurat.

You might change your view of whether or not it ought to have been allowed to continue.

OK. What did they try to do that was so horrendous? According to what I just read they defied some arbitrary command of God to spread around the world and instead settled in one place and tried to cooperatively build a friggen tower. Oh, the arrogance! Given what we know about engineering and science it wasn't going to allow them to climb to "heaven", of course, the original authors at the time of the story had no idea. So what was the issue?

Myths and the people who still believe the literal interpretation of them...

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Feb 18, 2023 10:10 pm But you won't find unity anywhere, on this planet. You will find some forced uniformity, in places like North Korea or Chinese prison camps, or gulags in Siberia. You'll also find Leftists who aim at unity by shaming, silencing and killing off all opposition.

Doesn't God set up things this way in your interpretation of Christianity? Join this worldview or suffer eternal damnation.
Now of course, that's God, or an idea of God. So, these people could merely be thinking they know more than they do. They are exhibiting hubris. Fine. But isn't the distaste we have for demanding unity not about human fallibility but about the demand itself? God couldn't manage to make it attractive, so there had to be a punitive aspect and not merely a Purgatory, but an eternal Hell? This seems such a limited version of a deity. A demiurge at best.

And then on the manifest front: It's true that nowadays Christianity itself can't dominate in this fashion, but it certainly used to, via different churches. Presumably you think this was wrong, in those times. State handled punishments for heresy, blasphemy, and various other crimes related to belief and seen as, amongst other things, breaks against unity. And yes, wokism and leftists these days do all sorts of things to people who act or believe openly differently. Presumably you think it was wrong for Christian communities and countries to punish deviation from norms and open beliefs in the past. And then even in the US when political correctness around all sorts of things was more conservative and one stood a good chance of losing work, residence and even one's life for not following Christian doctrines.

Harbal wrote: ↑Sat Feb 18, 2023 10:40 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Feb 18, 2023 10:27 pm

Harbal wrote: ↑Sat Feb 18, 2023 10:21 pm
I agree. There was no unity before Christ, and there hasn't been any since. It makes one wonder why he bothered.

Well, the story's not over yet. Let's see how it ends.

I can't imagine what you are expecting.

We know what he's expecting, one half of us go to heaven and the other half go to hell. I've opened my mouth and criticized God's world/mess, therefore I go to hell for not toeing the line. Half of the Bible's key protagonists had body counts. They're in heaven. That anyone still looks to the Bible as a credible text is beyond absurd.

Harbal wrote: ↑Sat Feb 18, 2023 10:37 pm There used to be forced uniformity of religion back in the dark ages, and even now in some parts of the Middle East.

Yes. And lots in the Soviet Union, or today in China.

But force cannot produce unity...only conformity, often grudging conformity, and lasting, simmering hostility. It takes actual love to produce unity. However, that's a resource to which, it seems, the world has insufficient access.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Feb 18, 2023 11:33 pm We know what he's expecting, one half of us go to heaven and the other half go to hell. I've opened my mouth and criticized God's world/mess, therefore I go to hell for not toeing the line.

Well look on the bright side, Gary, at least you and I will be able to meet in person.

Half of the Bible's key protagonists had body counts. They're in heaven.

I wonder how they all get along with the Islamic suicide terrorists who are also in Heaven.

That anyone still looks to the Bible as a credible text is beyond absurd.

Fortunately, not all take it as literally, or seriously, as IC.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Feb 18, 2023 11:41 pm

Harbal wrote: ↑Sat Feb 18, 2023 10:37 pm There used to be forced uniformity of religion back in the dark ages, and even now in some parts of the Middle East.

Yes. And lots in the Soviet Union, or today in China.

And you're rightfully opposed to what happened in the Soviet Union and China and from there denounce all forms of socialism. The Church does it and it's divine will or something? Let's keep trying it with the Church. Maybe the Church will get persecution right one of these days.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Feb 18, 2023 11:02 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Feb 18, 2023 10:12 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Feb 18, 2023 9:24 pm Apparently, your god fostered division to thwart the construction of the tower of babel.

You should look up what they were doing at that ziggurat.

You might change your view of whether or not it ought to have been allowed to continue.

OK. What did they try to do that was so horrendous?

That's a big topic. The place was started by a guy named Nimrod (the name means "rebel," apparently), who was the first despot, the first man to wall a city, and the first to make organized war. The ziggurat was to keep his empire consolidated, and its purpose was to supplant the worship of the one true God with forms of demonism. We know this was what they were doing because of the inscriptions of their demigods on the ziggurats...some of which survive to the present day. We also know that the ziggurats were centers of astrology and various sacrifices, and given the practices of ancient, mideastern pagan cults, very likely as well of temple prostitution and other such activities.

But all of this is not relevant to the present topic, so maybe you should conduct your own investigation. And if you want more, you could start here, for example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qy-fGciOh5k&t=193s. But otherwise, we should be talking about "wokeness" here.

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sat Feb 18, 2023 11:23 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Feb 18, 2023 10:10 pm But you won't find unity anywhere, on this planet. You will find some forced uniformity, in places like North Korea or Chinese prison camps, or gulags in Siberia. You'll also find Leftists who aim at unity by shaming, silencing and killing off all opposition.

Doesn't God set up things this way in your interpretation of Christianity? Join this worldview or suffer eternal damnation.

How's that prospect working for you? Do you think you have no choice as to what you do?

And then on the manifest front: It's true that nowadays Christianity itself can't dominate in this fashion, but it certainly used to, via different churches. Presumably you think this was wrong, in those times.

You won't find a thing in Scripture that would allow it. So what they were doing was not, in any real sense, "Christian" at all.

Harbal wrote: ↑Sat Feb 18, 2023 11:45 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Feb 18, 2023 11:33 pm We know what he's expecting, one half of us go to heaven and the other half go to hell. I've opened my mouth and criticized God's world/mess, therefore I go to hell for not toeing the line.

Well look on the bright side, Gary, at least you and I will be able to meet in person.

I'll be in better company then. Hopefully, there'll be prostitutes and dancing girls where I'm going. Virgins are too inexperienced to be much fun. Maybe if I try hanging out with the former crowd there'll be a little excitement for eternity.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Feb 18, 2023 11:48 pm And you're rightfully opposed to what happened in the Soviet Union and China and from there denounce all forms of socialism. The Church does it and it's divine will or something?

The real Church has never done any such thing, and could never. There's nothing in the Word of God that would ever allow it.

If anybody ever did such a thing, and called themselves "Christian" for doing it, then you can be quite confident they were lying.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Feb 19, 2023 12:00 am

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Feb 18, 2023 11:48 pm And you're rightfully opposed to what happened in the Soviet Union and China and from there denounce all forms of socialism. The Church does it and it's divine will or something?

The real Church has never done any such thing, and could never. There's nothing in the Word of God that would ever allow it.

If anybody ever did such a thing, and called themselves "Christian" for doing it, then you can be quite confident they were lying.

And yet persecution of one sort or another has been practiced pretty much EVERYWHERE temples of any kind have been erected.