Philosophy Now Forum

seeds wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 6:58 pm

Harbal wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 11:43 am I want to know what the kind of soul that has an actual existence after physical death consists of.

I suggest that while we exist in human form, the closest we can get to visualizing the soul is in the speculative answer I provided on page three of this thread where I stated this...

seeds wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 8:34 pm If within the context of a vivid dream you created a mirror within your mind - a mirror that could actually reflect an image back at you, then, looking into it, I suggest that you would not only see what your soul (the creator of the mirror) truly is and what it looks like,...

...but you would also understand what the greater "SOUL" of this universe (God) looks like, for (allegedly) we are its familial offspring, created in its image.

I've created a theory called "The Ultimate Seeds" in which I try to explain what the soul's ultimate form and eternal purpose might be. And with that theory I also created cartoons of how skeptics would no doubt respond to the theory...



The captions read as follows:

"He was so young, why did he have to die?"

"Why does God allow this to happen?"

"This is such a tragedy!"

"Death is so cruel!"

"Oakley, get down off of that ladder!"

"I think there's something up here!"

"Oakley, there's nothing up there! Have some respect for the dead, please!"

Meanwhile, up in acorn heaven...

"Wow! Just wait till the gang sees this!"

Captions:

"It's true, you are going to become a wonderful and glorious thing called a "tree." You will tower a hundred feet into the air and unfurl your beautiful green leaves to the sun!"

"That's the craziest thing I have ever heard. What are you anyway, some kind of a nut?"...

...Humph!! Tree!...leaves! How stupid does he think I am?"

"Is it my deodorant or what?"

"Once again, Oakley the acorn fails to promote his theory."

Clearly, Oakley was speaking an obvious truth that his unenlightened sibling was unaware of.

Now, of course, someone might point out that us "Ultimate Seeds" are in a worse situation than acorns, because "theoretically" the acorns can at least see what they will eventually become as they sit on the ground beneath a towering oak tree.

However, that's not true, for we too are capable of seeing what we will become.

Indeed, as bonkers as this may sound, as we stand on the earth and look out into the universe, we are also viewing what we (our souls) will become.

In other words, our souls, which are momentarily held within these seed-like bodies, hold the encapsulated potential of becoming a literal universe just like the one in which we were conceived.

And that is something that I have tried to help us visualize in my flagship illustration...



Yeah, yeah, I know...

"That's the craziest thing I have ever heard. What are you anyway, some kind of a nut?"

If nothing else, Harbal, I highly doubt that there could exist a more "natural" and "organic" vision of reality than what the "Ultimate Seed" theory suggests.
_______

These last words here is more evidence and proof of WHY these human beings, in the days when this is/was being written, took SO LONG to advance and progress forwards.

Harbal wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 7:29 pm

seeds wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 6:58 pm If nothing else, Harbal, I highly doubt that there could exist a more "natural" and "organic" vision of reality than what the "Ultimate Seed" theory suggests.
_______

In your acorn/tree analogy, we are the acorns, but why do you think we aren't already the trees? There is nothing to suggest that trees go on to a higher level of existence when they die, what evidence is there that we do?

Absolutely NONE, in the sense of that one person/soul going to ANY higher level of existence. However, human beings, collectively, are continually transcending into higher levels of Existence as they naturally evolve. Although, at times, like when this is being written, it can be sometimes very hard to see how humanity, itself, is transcending further up the ladder of Existence.

Harbal wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 7:29 pm But supposing you are right, and the soul does "transcend", what does it take of us with it?

But WHY 'suppose' 'that', in and from the sense that is being suggested here anyway. There is absolutely NO evidence NOR proof for such a claim.

However, WHY humanity is continually transcending is because of the previous 'thoughts', which used to exist. Remember, invisible 'thoughts' is what the 'soul' word is referring to, when in collaboration with EVERY thing else. Human beings, it is said, are continually transcending into higher levels of Existence because of and by standing on the 'shoulders of giants'. Which just means, literally, using the Right AND Good, ONLY, of those that have gone before 'us'.

Harbal wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 7:29 pm Our consciousness, memories, thoughts and experiences are brain dependant, so when the brain dies and these things are gone, what is left of our identity that carries on as the soul?

Again, the invisible 'thoughts', alone. Which, by the way, consist of the memories of the past experiences of those bodies.

Dubious wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 11:44 pm

Harbal wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 11:43 am I want to know what the kind of soul that has an actual existence after physical death consists of.

Ionized particles of your former self; a ghost that want's a body. I'm absolutely certain of that. There's a picture of me in an intermediate state after I died, before being reborn again. It looked completely featureless and really lonely since nothing could mold or touch it before it became physical once again...an agent of the senses.

So here I am, intentionally writing a bunch of BS on a BS thread which theoretically has no ending because there is no conclusion to end it, except the real one: it's all bunk!

When you say, 'it's all bunk', what are you actually referring to, EXACTLY?

Age wrote: ↑Sat Feb 25, 2023 12:55 pm 1. What is the DIFFERENCE between 'an existence' and 'an actual existence'?

I included the word, "actual", to emphasise that I didn't mean a sort of metaphorical existence.

There is NO 'soul' that has 'an actual existence after the physical body is not breathing nor pumping blood anymore, within that body. That 'soul' is, in a way, just living 'now, or have 'an (actual) existence, within other bodies.

But there are people who believe that the soul does have an actual existence after the physical body is not breathing nor pumping blood anymore, and it was to those people that I was directing my question.

Regarding...

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sat Feb 25, 2023 8:43 am We do not have consciousness, rather, we are consciousness swimming around as a fish is to water.

and...

Albert Einstein being embarrassed to earn respect and love for doing what his nature drives him to do...

Love it!

Harbal wrote: ↑Sat Feb 25, 2023 1:18 am

seeds wrote: ↑Sat Feb 25, 2023 12:38 am (Please forgive me for such a lengthy reply, but this stuff regarding the speculative ontology of the soul is complicated and cannot be presented in Twitteresque size posts.)
_______

Thank you, I appreciate the trouble you've gone to in explaining. Not that I understand it all, but it is interesting. Is this a belief or theory that is held by others, or is it all your own work?

As far as I can tell, other than what Meister Eckhart hinted at in the quote I provided earlier...

“The seed of God is in us: Pear seeds grow into pear trees; Hazel seeds into hazel trees; And God seeds into God.”

...I seem to be the only person I know of who is stressing the "we are the literal seeds of the universe" concept.

A Writer's Digest Magazine reviewer of my book...

(someone who was "forced" to read it because it was entered into the magazine's 16th annual international self-published book contest)

...did seem to think that it was a rather unique (new) theory.

Here's what the reviewer (judge) said (emphasis mine):

"The Ultimate Seeds: An Illustrated Guide to The Secret of the Universe is, first and foremost, an astonishingly ambitious book. In this work, the author sets forth an entirely new mythology, one that is equal parts scientific and mystical....The sheer amounts of time and thought that went into this book are breathtaking. The author is equally at ease with words and images: his talent for metaphor extends to a talent for metaphorical visuals. The illustrations both supplement and illuminate the text, and add a great deal to the book."

So, other than acquiring supporting (and inspiring) information from others...

(as in the old adage - "standing on the shoulders of giants")

...it is my own work.

Harbal wrote: ↑Sat Feb 25, 2023 1:18 am The only thing I would take issue with is this:

trees (or rabbits, or mice, or flies, or frogs or dogs, etc., etc.) are not created in the image of God (i.e., are not her literal offspring), no more than those same beings are your human mother's offspring.

I don't believe that human beings are special. As far as nature and the universe are concerned, we are just one among many other forms of life. That's how it seems to me, at least.

Right.

And if the blind and mindless workings of "nature"...

(which is simply the word "chance" dressed-up in a mother's apron)

...was the only thing responsible for the unfathomable order of the universe, then you would be fully justified in feeling that way.

However, if there truly is something living and intelligent behind it all, wouldn't that perhaps make you a little less nihilistic about our situation?
_______

seeds wrote: ↑Sat Feb 25, 2023 7:25 pm

Harbal wrote: ↑Sat Feb 25, 2023 1:18 am
I don't believe that human beings are special. As far as nature and the universe are concerned, we are just one among many other forms of life. That's how it seems to me, at least.

Right.

And if the blind and mindless workings of "nature"...

(which is simply the word "chance" dressed-up in a mother's apron)

...was the only thing responsible for the unfathomable order of the universe, then you would be fully justified in feeling that way.

However, if there truly is something living and intelligent behind it all, wouldn't that perhaps make you a little less nihilistic about our situation?
_______

Considering the size of the universe, I can't think of human beings having any significance either way. Even if there is intelligence behind "it all", I still don't see why you separate human beings from other species of animal, as far as our place in the whole scheme of things is concerned. Animals are made of flesh and bone, so are humans; animals have to eat to survive, do do humans; animals and humans reproduce in exactly the same way. Humans are prone to desease in exactly the same way animals are, and humans are equally susceptible to physical injury. Humans are just a species of animal. That seems glaringly obvious to me.

Your "mythology" might be correct, or it might not, I don't really mind one way or the other. Either way, it doesn't affect my here and now, and while I am alive, I could never know for sure anyway, just as I couldn't be sure of any other religious or spiritual set of beliefs. For that reason, it seems to make more sense to confine my thoughts to the world I do know exists, rather than speculate about way might come after I am no longer one of its residents.

Your "mythology" is quite an achievement, btw, so I still congratulate you on it.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 2:59 am

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 2:26 am

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 2:16 am

Talking about the here and now. Who has the patience to wait for something like that?!

Well, it depends how much faith you have in such a ridiculous idea - you could get a shotgun and blow yer brains out now.

Or, get a VR headset and join vrporn.com I'm pretty certain those girls arn't virgins - maybe apart from the lesbians (although not sure if dildos cancel virginity!!?)

I guess in the end, I really just want one girl in this world. And I haven't been able to get her yet. I don't know. Maybe there's hope. Just seems like a long time to wait and a lot of loneliness in between.

If you were not so choosy, and REALLY did want a girlfriend, then you could obtain one in just one day. Coming here and continually complaining about not having a girlfriend is NOT going to help you in ANY WAY getting one.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 4:04 am

Agent Smith wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 3:22 am A soul is a hypothesized essence which humans, even animals, are said to possess.

No/flimsy evidence till date.

I mostly think of a soul as something that (allegedly) endures death. Perhaps it can be said that a soul is therefore "essential" of a person because it's a constant that endures all other qualities or components. However, if much of our thinking and mental activity is tied to the physical brain and the physical world, then is it really the case that the soul is the "essence" of a person?

YES.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 4:04 am Maybe it's more like the bones of a skeleton? A skeleton is (at least in terms of this world) perhaps a mere shell or residue of what a person once was. But I guess that all depends on where one stakes one's hopes.

And is there a wrong answer to the question of where one stakes one's hopes?

NOT in the sense that what one HOPES FOR is solely because of past experiences, which they obviously, up to a certain point, had absolutely NO part AT ALL in DECIDING.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 4:04 am Do those who stake it on an afterlife miss out on this life? Or do those who put stake in this life win the bigger jackpot? Or, to resurrect criticisms of Pascal's Wager, is making one's decision based on trying to mathematically deduce the size of jackpots automatically an invitation to be condemned to special place in Hell (albeit, perhaps a relatively less agonizing one or something to that of serial murderers)?

you are absolutely FREE to HOPE for absolutely ANY thing, like some even HOPE for a girl friend but NEVER actually do ANY thing to make it REALLY happen, for example.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 4:04 am I don't know. In the end the world sometimes seems like just a pissing contest, or perhaps a contest of some other kind.

But ONLY to SOME.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 4:04 am According to Christ the meek shall inherit the Earth and the least is the greatest.

I do NOT know about 'the least is the greatest' but it is an OBVIOUS Fact that 'the meek do in fact inherit the earth.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 4:04 am Of course, there's no proof one way or the other of any of that, however, it does leave one to find consolation in defeat or failure.

What are you on about here? The ACTUAL and IRREFUTABLE is HERE before you NOW, for ALL to LOOK AT, DISCUSS, and SEE.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 7:05 am

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 4:33 am Why don't you believe in an individual soul that persists after death? Just saying, wouldn't agnosticism be a better stance in terms of where our knowledge of such things is at? I'm not saying that agnosticism may or may not win its adherent a great boon one way or the other, however, it seems more rational, if that's worth anything.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I see the value and logic of what you are suggesting -- and I don't know anything for sure. However, I simply don't believe in various ideas/beliefs if my own experiences have demonstrated something otherwise for me.

LOL Here this one is, AGAIN, CONTRADICTING its previous CLAIMS.

Here this one is basing what is ACTUALLY REAL and True on 'its' OWN very limited experiences, thus is NOT REALLY LOOKING AT ANY MORE nor BEYOND 'its' OWN experiences. What this one BELIEVES is true or NOT true is based on NOTHING MORE than 'its' OWN experiences ONLY.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 7:05 am
It may be different for other people. I'm not sure that we're all meant to have the same experience/reality.

OF COURSE NO two people can have the EXACT SAME experiences. But, and just as OBVIOUS, is the Fact that there are SOME experiences that are the EXACT SAME, and, by the way, this is WHERE the ACTUAL and IRREFUTABLE Truth LIES. As I have been continually SAYING, or for some, continually ALLUDING TO.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 7:05 am
When I had a near death experience, I experienced what it felt like to no longer be an individual or a human. The sense was of something like being energy with awareness... waiting to see if the human beings saved the dying physical body.

Here we have ANOTHER example of this one just SAYING the EXACT SAME 'things' as "others" do, but just USING DIFFERENT WORDS.

The 'posters' here in this forum have YET TO REALIZE that they have been talking about the EXACT SAME 'Thing', but have been USING DIFFERENT WORDS, and MEANINGS, and have just been ARGUING and FIGHTING OVER those DIFFERENT DEFINITIONS.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 7:05 am
It truly didn't matter one way or the other. There were no desires, preferences, fears, needs, judgements, emotions, limits, separation, or ego... and none of the human ideas, models, or struggle.

SOME just arrive at this CONCLUSION through MEDITATION, or in other words when just NOT 'thinking'.

your human being ideas and models do NOT matter, especially considering the Fact that the ACTUAL and IRREFUTABLE Truth is HERE, 'staring at you, in the face', as some might say. However, there are SOME who BELIEVE that 'There is NO one truth', and SO can NOT SEE the ACTUAL Truth BEFORE them.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 7:05 am
As a result of that experience, I have no reason to think I have a separate/individual soul or that there's a need/purpose for one.

Do you, however, have a reason to think that 'you' are a separate/individual 'person'?

Do you think that there is a need/purpose for a separate or individual 'person'?

Lacewing wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 7:05 am
Further... if we consider the fluctuating populations of beings (who supposedly have unique souls), how and why are more souls continually being created as civilizations grow, or being put on hold after entire ancient civilizations are wiped out?

When 'you', human beings, STOP 'supposing' 'things', could be true, which are OBVIOUSLY Truly ILLOGICAL and just plain STUPID and SILLY, then 'you' can START moving forward and evolving Properly AND Correctly.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 7:05 am
How does that work?

It does NOT work, could NOT work, and would NEVER work, so just STOP 'supposing', 'assuming', and talking ABOUT 'it' as though it could or might work.

When 'you', people, STOP talking ABOUT those Truly ABSURD 'things', then 'you' can Truly 'let them go', and then Truly MOVE ON.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 7:05 am
Why wouldn't it make more sense that everything is part of, and an expression of, one creative ocean of energy (so to speak) that gives birth to countless temporary forms of awareness that rise and fall within the one?

Have you EVER heard ANY of absolutely one in this forum SAY or SUGGEST otherwise?

And, WHY do you express 'the above', the way you do, as though you are the ONLY one here who has come to KNOW what 'the truth' IS?

Age wrote: ↑Sat Feb 25, 2023 10:30 pm Coming here and continually complaining about not having a girlfriend is NOT going to help you in ANY WAY getting one.

No. It's not. But it passes the time that I am not with her in a way that is fulfilling and soothing to me. It's difficult to say nothing about something that is constantly on one's mind.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 9:31 am

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 8:35 am Hey, I can appreciate what you said above re NDE, but how do u think YOU are not unique...as a soul?

Because I experienced not feeling unique (during the NDE) beyond the human state/realm.

All 'you' did was just experience the REAL and True 'Self', for those very short few seconds.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 9:31 am Any uniqueness, it seems to me, has to do with my expression as a human while being a human.

AND, either 'you' are a UNIQUE and SPECIAL individual human being OR 'you' are some 'thing' else.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 9:31 am Sort of like a performer on a stage might perform various roles for a story...

That is just what 'you', adult human beings, DO, continually. 'you' are just about always 'acting' and rarely if EVER being the REAL and True 'Self'. But, 'you' are ALL just 'students' here, learning about Life, although evolution is taking 'you' ALL to coming to REALIZE and KNOW the ACTUAL and IRREFUTABLE Truth.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 9:31 am but it's just a story on that stage, nowhere else. Neither does the character exist beyond the stage.

As "dontaskme" would say, it is all an ILLUSION.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 9:31 am

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 8:35 am

Lacewing wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 7:05 am..how and why are more souls continually being created as civilizations grow, or being put on hold after entire ancient civilizations are wiped out? How does that work? Why wouldn't it make more sense that everything is part of, and an expression of, one creative ocean of energy (so to speak) that gives birth to countless temporary forms of awareness that rise and fall within the one?

Well, exactly...but the "one" is unique...it is unique to every 'one'...it is your POV within this energy of the universe...it is YOU.

To assign uniqueness, it must be in relation to something else -- you have to suppose there are multiple separate 'ones', right? I'm not supposing that.

How MANY actual human beings do you 'suppose' there are, EXACTLY?

One or more than one?

'you', individual human beings, are ALL obviously UNIQUE, and thus even UNIQUELY SPECIAL, in relation to "EACH and EVERY OTHER human being".

Lacewing wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 9:31 am I think separateness is an illusion. That doesn't mean we can't enjoy it while we're pretending.

OF COURSE there is NO ACTUAL 'separation' ANYWHERE, other than in the conceptually made 'separation', made through (the) language of words. But this made up illusion 'separation', made through and from words, is a completely necessary part of the One Life, Itself, in so that 'It' could evolve into coming to KNOW thy 'Self'.

The way human beings can keep learning, understanding, and reasoning is because of this 'separation' through words, which only they make. This is necessary in order to be able to keep COMPREHENDING and UNDERSTANDING this One and ONLY Life and Existence, which they have found "themselves" WITHIN.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 9:31 am

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 8:35 am..so re 'wiped out civilisations' ...can you consider that you traverse time, that you incarnate within being reborn?

Yes. I can also consider that the idea of linear time might be an illusion. Perhaps we are manifesting across the collective network in many ways, all at once. Many of my dreams feel like I'm remembering the future, and like I've really lived them... ever since I was a kid. I'm just not sure it matters which is dream and which is non-dream... I try to live both mindfully.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 8:35 am You DO believe you have an essence...a "soul" Lacewing - clearly you just don't like any association to mainstream current religious context ascribed to your contemplation. .... ... ... ?

Honestly... I don't feel I somehow own/possess any particular essence... rather, I am an expression of something greater than the small human in this physical form.

This is because the 'you', or the 'person', is NOT some 'thing' that does own/possess absolutely ANY 'thing'.

'you', the 'person', are literally only just the sum of all of that body's past experiences, existing as the, invisible, 'thoughts' within that body. Which, by the way, is EXACTLY what the 'soul' is meant to be. That is; an invisible part of a human being, which is said to keep existing after the visible (physical) part of the body stops living.

I have already partly explained HOW that 'soul' keeps existing, and/or keeps living, after the body has stopped breathing and stopped pumping blood.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 9:31 am Perhaps this manifestation can be many things. When the form dies, the 'essence' or energy that animated the form returns to the whole... for the next creation. That's my guess.

But there is NO 'return', in the sense that there is somewhere ELSE to go.

There is ONLY this One and ONLY Life, or Existence, ONLY.

There is NO OTHER 'place' to go to NOR return to.

Whatever happens, happens HERE.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 9:31 am Have you experimented or experienced being without ego? That seems to change everything.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 9:50 am

Lacewing wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 7:05 am

When I had a near death experience, I experienced what it felt like to no longer be an individual or a human. The sense was of something like being energy with awareness... waiting to see if the human beings saved the dying physical body. It truly didn't matter one way or the other. There were no desires, preferences, fears, needs, judgements, emotions, limits, separation, or ego... and none of the human ideas, models, or struggle. As a result of that experience, I have no reason to think I have a separate/individual soul or that there's a need/purpose for one.

I've never had a NDE personally, but my mum did when she was involved in a nasty car crash in her 20's. She told me her experience had helped her let go of the fear of dying. She told me something happens to your brain in which the world just simply fades away, like it's all gone, except you are not gone, you seem to still exist, like be in some kind of sublime state of pure blissful content free awareness, where you feel like you have transcended the weight of the body and are now feeling the experience of being weightless, as if you were flying.

This is just the One and ONLY REAL and True 'Self', which exists ALWAYS-ETERNALLY, anyway.

And which is being expressed in ALL WAYS, through ALL of those 'things' like 'you', individual human beings, for example, as well as ALL of the "other" 'things'.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 9:50 am Not having had an NDE myself, I'll tell you what did happen to me one night as I was drifting off to sleep, I suddenly out of the blue, had this extraordinary experience of feeling as if I was transcending the entire weight of my body, where all I could feel was an amazing state of total weightlessness, where I was falling through what seemed like a bottomless void. I just remember it being very scary like I was no longer in control of myself, it was so intense and made me want to jolt out of the sensation, which I did. I've only ever experienced this once in my whole life, the experience has never repeated, and it's something I'll never forget.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 7:05 am Why wouldn't it make more sense that everything is part of, and an expression of, one creative ocean of energy (so to speak) that gives birth to countless temporary forms of awareness that rise and fall within the one?

I too agree with this analogy Lacewing.

Perhaps there is only ever one soul, and our impression of being an ''individual soul'' who is having a separate experience is like the impression a wave arising from the ocean has of itself.

With the Right WORDS what is ACTUALLY and OCCURRING is thee word 'Spirit' refers to the one and ONLY True INDIVIDUAL One, Self, or Being, whereas the 'soul' word refers to the many different individual human ones, selves, or beings.

When delved into FULLY, then ALL-OF-THIS makes PERFECT SENSE.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 9:50 am The ocean endlessly generates infinite numbers of waves, and each one believes for the brief duration of it's appearance that itself, and all the other waves, are not connected.

Do ANY of 'you', human beings, BELIEVE this?

If yes, then WHY would 'you' BELIEVE such a thing as this?

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 9:50 am Perhaps there is one ocean of consciousness,

That is just Consciousness, Itself, or thee One Spiritual Being.

Although there is A consciousness within 'you', human beings, they are ALL just a PART OF thee One Consciousness, Itself.

And, as such are now starting to take more notice, actually a lot of the participants in this forum have been talking about the EXACT SAME 'Thing', but just in DIFFERENT WAY, using DIFFERENT WORDS, all based on their OWN past, individual, experiences. Thus, EXACTLY WHERE ALL of the CONFUSION and MISUNDERSTANDING has been coming from.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 9:50 am and it generates infinite numbers of points of attention.

The ONLY WAY 'It' generate infinite numbers of points of attention is through the MANY DIFFERENT human beings who ALL have a brain within them that is able to gather and store the 'information' the body has received, through the five sense, and which is kept as 'thoughts', which is more or less just the individual 'consciousness' within individual human bodies.

Individual brains have and hold 'points of views', again which are just those invisible and individual 'thoughts', which can also be known as 'points of attention'.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 9:50 am You are a point of attention in the ocean of consciousness. So am I.

The use of the capital 'I' is a COMPLETE MISUSE of the word, and signifies the ego of human beings, which has been going on for thousands upon thousands of years.

Human beings do see "themselves" as above ALL OTHER 'things' and so have labelled and classed "themselves" with the capital 'i'.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 9:50 am But really, behind our masks of separate individual identities and experiences, we are really one thing experiencing ourself under the temporary arrangement of taking on a specific role wearing different masks, some of which are more denser and heavier than others. But some masks are more transparent in the sense they can see more clearly the illusion of separateness.

If 'we' are going to talk about 'some', as though 'they' ARE DIFFERENT or ACT DIFFERENTLY than "others", then 'we' also have to ADMIT that there ARE separate and different 'things'. Or, 'we' can START USING words and a language, which itself expresses the one and ONLY ACTUAL and REAL, IRREFUTABLE Truth? I am READY whenever ANY one "else" is.

Harbal wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 12:09 pm

attofishpi wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 10:56 am

Harbal wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 10:52 am

If I reduce "me" down to its essence, I am consciousness with a particular identity. My identity is formed from my experiences, and my memories. After death, when my brain, in which my experiences and memories are stored, and on which my consciousness depends for its existence, is no longer functioning, what remains that is in any sense me?

Well that's easy - your POV.

So in the case of reincarnation, reborn with all your previous knowledge wiped, but still you and your point-of-view.

I've thought about this a bit more, and I think I know what you mean, but what about consciousness? Do you think the soul is conscious,

There is NOT 'a thing' that that is 'conscious', but 'a consciousness' within a human body.

That is; there exists 'an awareness' within human bodies. However, in saying that it is only 'a very limited awareness', when it is from that one body ONLY.

Harbal wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 12:09 pm
and if so, does the you I am communicating with now occupy the same consciousness as your soul?

There is NOT a 'you' NOR a 'human being' that owns nor possesses ANY 'thing'. So, there is NO 'your' soul. There is, however, the 'soul' word, which just refers to a PART OF the 'human being'.

And 'consciousness' being 'awareness' there are DIFFERENT ones, ALL dependant upon the body, itself. These different 'consciousnesses' are just being expressed, from the 'thoughts' within and through the individual different human bodies, where 'consciousness' or 'awareness' actually came from in the beginning.

Harbal wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 12:09 pm Is the awareness that you are experiencing now your soul?

There is NOT a 'you' experiencing 'awareness', NOR having a soul. There is, however, 'an awareness', within that body, which exists as 'thought', and which is expressed as and from 'thoughts'.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 12:25 pm

Harbal wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 12:09 pm

attofishpi wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 10:56 am

Well that's easy - your POV.

So in the case of reincarnation, reborn with all your previous knowledge wiped, but still you and your point-of-view.

I've thought about this a bit more, and I think I know what you mean, but what about consciousness? Do you think the soul is conscious, and if so, does the you I am communicating with now occupy the same consciousness as your soul? Is the awareness that you are experiencing now your soul?

Wow. So from my comprehension, the soul has consciousness via the human body (*in our instance) ...and yes, when you communicate with me you are talking to my unique soul within the universe (and a body) and when I respond I am talking to your soul (which is unique within the universe).

So who or what is the 'one', which supposedly, owns or possesses this 'soul' 'thing'?