For the discussion of all things philosophical.
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How can "eternal values" and "universal truths" be anything other than notions made-up by humans? Why in the world we think we know of such things is fascinating.
"Street Fighting Man"Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 24, 2018 4:15 amHe just pretends to be logical, let him be, he needs the practice. He cannot take the fact that their might exist things outside of his understanding and it threatens his perspective of reality.Nick_A wrote: ↑Sat Feb 24, 2018 4:05 am -1-
What is most disturbing about your posts is willingly limiting yourself to defining knowledge by sensory scientific truth and values by societal pragmatic decisions. Plato wrote of a greater reality above the divided line and sensory experience. You deny it while I'm open to it. Being open isn't believing but allowing for the conscious use of the quality of intuition to experience it. You believe in the Great Beast as the highest form of consciousness and I am open to a quality of consciousness far greater than Man on earth exhibits.What YOU can't see, however, at least you give no evidence of it, is that Nick_A and you hold strong beliefs that can't be verified and you want us to accept your views as truth; and we hold views that can be and are verified by senses and logic, and yet you deny their validity.
It's not even that your (Dontaskme's and Nick_A's) views are opposed to ours. (Which they are, but that's not the main point.) The most disturbing about your posts, and what we, the rest of the board hold grievance against, is that you place value on completely unknowable things, and call it "knowledge" and "truth".
I dealt with him for the past couple months, he just self-destructs in a self-righteous "babies die in Africa; therefore God does not exist" mode, then cracks a few jokes about the absurdity of life in a vain effort to do a "yo bro" thing.
Half the time I am manipulating him and he doesn't even know it...its happening right now.
His most likely response will be to throw a few labels, accuse someone of obscurity, throw a joke, or all of the above. The question is, because I state this will happen, will he not do it to in an effort to prove I am wrong...or am I using reverse psychology to prove a point?
Very much so, but we all know Nick has a terminal saint complex anyway. Anyway, if one believes in a larger and divine humanlike intelligence that governs our reality then I suppose it follows that the values aren't human-dependant. Personally, I think the only humanlike intelligence are that of humans.
Yes. Logic would seem to suggest, however, that humans could not perceive at that level, else the humans would be gods themselves... and there would be no need for a god. Yet, somehow, many theists seem to say that they know and translate the mind of a god. It makes no sense.
Such patterns throughout nature and the cosmos seem reasonable to expect. I like to imagine intelligent life forms who are at peace with their manifestation/life, and who have found highly loving and productive ways to expand and utilize energy beyond our comprehension.Greta wrote: ↑Sun Feb 25, 2018 3:14 am To be fair, though, there could be simple eternal values shared by some other species and there's also the decent probability that there are many intelligent aliens in other regions of the cosmos, and we may all share certain values. Maybe patriarchy and unhealthy fixations on controlling women's bodies is universal?
I realize that there will surely be an opposite force to that, somewhere in the Universe... as I suspect that all creative possibilities are playing out. Not only on the cosmic scale... but within our own humanoid selves... we are such manifestors... whether conscious and free, or in a haze of noise and intoxicated patterns. 
Anyway, if one believes in a larger and divine humanlike intelligence that governs our reality then I suppose it follows that the values aren't human-dependant.
But with eternity, time and temporal creatures are not implicated in learning or opining or anything else that creatures do. Eternity doesn't govern our reality; eternity is another, equal, aspect of reality. For all we can know there may be other aspects of reality besides eternity and relativity in time. It's hard to understand eternity since our lives are lived temporarily. There are however glimmerings of understanding of eternity.Yes. Logic would seem to suggest, however, that humans could not perceive at that level, else the humans would be gods themselves... and there would be no need for a god. Yet, somehow, many theists seem to say that they know and translate the mind of a god. It makes no sense.
What they know are their internal observations and sensations, which they uncritically extrapolate to be universal.Lacewing wrote: ↑Sun Feb 25, 2018 6:08 amYes. Logic would seem to suggest, however, that humans could not perceive at that level, else the humans would be gods themselves... and there would be no need for a god. Yet, somehow, many theists seem to say that they know and translate the mind of a god. It makes no sense.
I always liked a comment by astronomer, Martin Reeve, who observed that any beings that are one billion years further advanced than humans would be as different from humans today as humans are from bacteria. Now imagine a bacterial colony understanding the mind of a human ...Lacewing wrote:Such patterns throughout nature and the cosmos seem reasonable to expect. I like to imagine intelligent life forms who are at peace with their manifestation/life, and who have found highly loving and productive ways to expand and utilize energy beyond our comprehension.Greta wrote: ↑Sun Feb 25, 2018 3:14 amTo be fair, though, there could be simple eternal values shared by some other species and there's also the decent probability that there are many intelligent aliens in other regions of the cosmos, and we may all share certain values. Maybe patriarchy and unhealthy fixations on controlling women's bodies is universal?
Will scientists make much headway in this area now, when they not done so beforehand? So far testing of mystics has seemed like studying sex by having subjects engage in the act on a stretcher bed in a sterile laboratory room, knowing that their every response is being monitored. It's simply offputting. One could say that the act of observation affects the eventBelinda wrote: ↑Sun Feb 25, 2018 10:08 am Greta wrote and Lacewing replied:
Anyway, if one believes in a larger and divine humanlike intelligence that governs our reality then I suppose it follows that the values aren't human-dependant.But with eternity, time and temporal creatures are not implicated in learning or opining or anything else that creatures do. Eternity doesn't govern our reality; eternity is another, equal, aspect of reality. For all we can know there may be other aspects of reality besides eternity and relativity in time. It's hard to understand eternity since our lives are lived temporarily. There are however glimmerings of understanding of eternity.Yes. Logic would seem to suggest, however, that humans could not perceive at that level, else the humans would be gods themselves... and there would be no need for a god. Yet, somehow, many theists seem to say that they know and translate the mind of a god. It makes no sense.
Ability to perceive a glimmering of eternity doesn't turn humans into gods. The arts sometimes provide analogies of eternity and art appreciation doesn't make anybody a god. What "many theists" say about their concepts of an Almighty and of eternity is hardly relevant to philosophy and many theists have caused many blocks to understanding, reason, and happiness.
The jury is still out on mystics and it may be that some conscious states are especially conducive to understanding eternity. I reckon that this is matter for scientists.
I think I was but I must have been agog that someone can say this with a straight face.Dontaskme wrote:I know this because I don't know this...were you not listening the last time I said this.
These are not relative terms.We can only know something when it is in relation to something else. ..which in this case is not-knowing.
Then how do you know it is a face?Your faceless face.
So you keep saying but if they are opposites they cannot be the same thing and if they are no thing then there can't be one of them.Via knowledge of opposites. Nothing and Everything are the same No thing =ONE
But it should sound like no words?I am silent..there is only ever silence sounding.
And yet if anything can be said at all it can be said clearly, why can you not do this then?No word can describe this...or all words describe it.
They really do.
Each to their own then.
And what it apparently senses is an external world or what use for an eye?What ever the eye is apparently seeing.
As a survivor of the Communist Holocaust I am horrified to witness how my beloved America, my adopted country, is gradually being transformed into a secularist and atheistic utopia, where communist ideals are glorified and promoted, while Judeo-Christian values and morality are ridiculed and increasingly eradicated from the public and social consciousness of our nation. Under the decades-long assault and militant radicalism of many so-called “liberal” and “progressive” elites, God has been progressively erased from our public and educational institutions, to be replaced with all manner of delusion, perversion, corruption, violence, decadence, and insanity.
It is no coincidence that as Marxist ideologies and secularist principles engulf the culture and pervert mainstream thinking, individual freedoms and liberties are rapidly disappearing. As a consequence, Americans feel increasingly more powerless and subjugated by some of the most radical and hypocritical, least democratic, and characterless individuals our society has ever produced.
Those of us who have experienced and witnesses first-hand the atrocities and terror of communism understand fully why such evil takes root, how it grows and deceives, and the kind of hell it will ultimately unleash on the innocent and the faithful. Godlessness is always the first step towards tyranny and oppression!
Nobel laureate, Orthodox Christian author, and Russian dissident, Alexander Solzhenitsyn, in his “Godlessness: the First Step to the Gulag” address, given when he received the Templeton Prize for Progress in Religion on May of 1983, explained how the Russian revolution and the communist takeover were facilitated by an atheistic mentality an a long process of secularization which alienated the people from God and traditional Christian morality and beliefs. He rightly concluded: “Men have forgotten God; that’s why all this has happened.”
The text of his Templeton Address is provided below. The parallels with the current crisis and moral decay in American society are striking and frightening. Those who have ears to hear, let them hear!
How do we know that these glimmerings aren't simply the edge of one facet of countless expanding facets?
Agreed. But I speak to that because it is such a large element in humankind that seems to so effectively demonstrate our greatest errors in logic, judgment, and self-elevation to imagined god-like superiority over all that we are actually a part of.
The same way you know that you were born by a thing called a mother. Face is just a concept humans have invented to make sense of life.
No they are not the same thing, a thing cannot be not a thing... just as the concept apple cannot be the concept orange..concepts are fixed things that cannot change. To know that requires the opposite knowing to exist in the same moment which is one unitary knowing appearing as duality.Arising_uk wrote: ↑Sun Feb 25, 2018 4:24 pmSo you keep saying but if they are opposites they cannot be the same thing and if they are no thing then there can't be one of them.
Same reason why when you show a pet dog or a cat a book and ask them to read it ..they can't read it....and don't need to read it to function ..reading is in the illusory story of other, it's a fiction...believed to be real.Arising_uk wrote: ↑Sun Feb 25, 2018 4:24 pmAnd yet if anything can be said at all it can be said clearly, why can you not do this then?
Well said!Greta wrote: ↑Sun Feb 25, 2018 1:25 pmWhat they know are their internal observations and sensations, which they uncritically extrapolate to be universal.Lacewing wrote: ↑Sun Feb 25, 2018 6:08 am Logic would seem to suggest, however, that humans could not perceive at that level, else the humans would be gods themselves... and there would be no need for a god. Yet, somehow, many theists seem to say that they know and translate the mind of a god. It makes no sense.
Yes, that makes sense to me! There is no logical reason to think that our process or current developmental stage is some sort of model pinnacle of rightness, intelligence, awareness, or unique divineness.Greta wrote: ↑Sun Feb 25, 2018 1:25 pm I always liked a comment by astronomer, Martin Reeve, who observed that any beings that are one billion years further advanced than humans would be as different from humans today as humans are from bacteria. Now imagine a bacterial colony understanding the mind of a human ...
It's more likely that we are one branch of creative possibility gone wonky... in order to inform the entire cosmic network of what happens on that path. But, no reason to get down on ourselves -- let's have a sense of humor and love about it, while demonstrating our phenomenal capability for shifting beyond it!"I will answer you as soon as you write nominative sentences with assertions, instead of questions. Who do you think you are, that we hop to answering your questions? State your position, we don't play your guessing game. Actually, I won't answer your nominative sentences either."-1- wrote: ↑Sun Feb 25, 2018 12:57 am"Street Fighting Man"Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 24, 2018 4:15 amHe just pretends to be logical, let him be, he needs the practice. He cannot take the fact that their might exist things outside of his understanding and it threatens his perspective of reality.Nick_A wrote: ↑Sat Feb 24, 2018 4:05 am -1-
What is most disturbing about your posts is willingly limiting yourself to defining knowledge by sensory scientific truth and values by societal pragmatic decisions. Plato wrote of a greater reality above the divided line and sensory experience. You deny it while I'm open to it. Being open isn't believing but allowing for the conscious use of the quality of intuition to experience it. You believe in the Great Beast as the highest form of consciousness and I am open to a quality of consciousness far greater than Man on earth exhibits.
I dealt with him for the past couple months, he just self-destructs in a self-righteous "babies die in Africa; therefore God does not exist" mode, then cracks a few jokes about the absurdity of life in a vain effort to do a "yo bro" thing.
Half the time I am manipulating him and he doesn't even know it...its happening right now.
His most likely response will be to throw a few labels, accuse someone of obscurity, throw a joke, or all of the above. The question is, because I state this will happen, will he not do it to in an effort to prove I am wrong...or am I using reverse psychology to prove a point?
Ev'rywhere I hear the sound of marching, charging feet, boy
Cause summer's here and the time is right for fighting in the street, boy
But what can a poor boy do
Except to sing for a rock 'n' roll band
Cause in sleepy London town
There's just no place for a street fighting man
No
Hey! Think the time is right for a palace revolution
But where I live the game to play is compromise solution
Well, then what can a poor boy do
Except to sing for a rock 'n' roll band
'Cause in sleepy London town
There's no place for a street fighting man
No
Hey! Said my name is called disturbance
I'll shout and scream, I'll kill the king, I'll rail at all his servants
Well, what can a poor boy do
Except to sing for a rock 'n' roll band
Cause in sleepy London town
There's no place for a street fighting man
No
-- Jagger-Richards, "Street Fighting Men"
Looks like I stepped on a lot of toes just a bit too often... One has to decide sometimes between harmonious co-existence and calling a spade a spade, and stand up for his conviction. ("Will the defendant please rise...") (This last bit in the brackets was a joke. Played on the last 5 words of the preceding sentence.) (No, not a sentence pronounced by a judge for a conviction... although that, too. Oh, boy.)
Maybe if I put you, JohnDoe, on iggy, it will help... hey, why not.
"I dealt with him for the past couple months, he just self-destructs in a self-righteous "babies die in Africa; therefore God does not exist" mode, then cracks a few jokes about the absurdity of life in a vain effort to do a "yo bro" thing. "
Nick_A, you are obstinate enough to seamlessly ignore any reasonable opinion, so it's safe to ignore your opinions, even when fully visible.
What on earth is an external world?Arising_uk wrote: ↑Sun Feb 25, 2018 4:24 pmAnd what it apparently senses is an external world or what use for an eye?
Interesting which bits you decided to ignore in your reply.
Apparently the gods don't know who they are any more....