Philosophy Now Forum

Greta wrote: ↑Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:25 am

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:19 am

Greta wrote: ↑Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:16 am It's been explained more than once by me on this thread. I'd rather not repeat myself more than necessary.

The obviousness that life is the immaculate conception makes a patriarchal mindset a myth.

"Life is the immaculate conception". Please explain. That makes no sense.

You cannot get away from the creepy obsessing about virginity of the ancients. Read up some history. This primal need to fully possess the reproductive capacities of a woman are behind the focus on virginity.

Sorry I gave up looking at dead stuff ages ago. I've taken up residence in the only place that exist, namely, now this immaculate immediate pure presence where new creative juices are begging to be born.

Greta wrote: ↑Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:25 am
You cannot get away from the creepy obsessing about virginity of the ancients. Read up some history. This primal need to fully possess the reproductive capacities of a woman are behind the focus on virginity.

I have absolutely no idea what the heck you are talking about.

Greta wrote: ↑Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:56 pm

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:06 am

Greta wrote: ↑Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:12 am I see the virgin birth as "just a myth", not valuable unless one buys into a patriarchal mindset, which is just an extra filter that interferes with clear thought.

What on earth does that even mean?

Talk about me not making sense?

Who gave birth to this assumed ''patriarchal mindset'' mentioned? ...who gave birth to this assumed ''clear thinker'' mentioned?

Who is buying into what and was that who born?

Okay, explained with shorter words: The act of trying to work out what is actually going on in reality is hindered if one is distracted by silly myths about women giving birth without having had sex beforehand. It acts as noise, like a filter that interferes with clear-sighted perception.

Your questions make no sense. If you think that virgin births have nothing to do with a patriarchal mindset - despite your brave rationalisation in another post - you are ignoring history.

You made an excellent point in that other post as regards the permanent physical changes that a woman experiences after sex but this still underestimates the mental and emotional changes that losing virginity brings to each gender - as a rite of passage, almost a modern private initiation ceremony. The event is huge and permanently changing for each gender.

So, even if psychological affects are put aside, we are left with a traditionalist view that wildly overrates virginity due to vestigial patriarchy within the culture. I can accept the patriarchy within the culture because I don't expect lasting societal changes to be fast, but that doesn't mean uncritically accepting patriarchy's perspectives, including the magnified perspective of virginity.

I'm going to discuss all this with my 4 year old Grandaughter to see if she can shed some light on this, because I have absolutely no idea whatsoever what you are talking about.

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Greta wrote: ↑Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:25 am "Life is the immaculate conception". Please explain. That makes no sense.

Life is living itself, it's all one. That's the immaculate conception, the knowing itself as conceived alone.

The patriarchal mindset is the myth...life is not patriarchal..it has no mind to be so.

Have you ever heard a tree say to another tree..hey tree get off my turf?

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Dontaskme wrote: ↑Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:27 am

Greta wrote: ↑Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:22 am In "real life" knowledge is no illusion, rather it is power.

Belief is power..the mind of belief is very powerful..it's a myth appearing real.

Real enough to send a craft into space and land on a comet over half a billion kilometres away and travelling at 17,000kph. There is an intrinsic reality to physical models that defies the notion of "illusion".

Yes, Einstein noted that everything is relative and, if one wants to dig enough, you might say the edifice is built on a house of cards. However, precariousness and temporality do not equal non existence.

Greta wrote: ↑Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:42 am

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:27 am

Greta wrote: ↑Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:22 am In "real life" knowledge is no illusion, rather it is power.

Belief is power..the mind of belief is very powerful..it's a myth appearing real.

Real enough to send a craft into space and land on a comet over half a billion kilometres away and travelling at 17,000kph. There is an intrinsic reality to physical models that defies the notion of "illusion".

Yes, Einstein noted that everything is relative and, if one wants to dig enough, you might say the edifice is built on a house of cards. However, precariousness and temporality do not equal non existence.

There is no such thing as non-existence. Life is not an illusion , the story of 'other' is the illusion.

Humans refuse to get out of their own way because they wrongly believe they are going to die...

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Saying that the story of other is a myth, does not mean life is an illusion...and therefore does not exist...of course it exists, but not the way you believe it to exist.

The way you have been conditioned by those who came before you told you...that you believed was real.

Knowledge informs the illusory idea that you exist apart from your mother...but you have come out of your mother...you are inseparable from everything that came before you..any division is purely illusory.

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Everything has come out of it's own self inseparably one, there is nothing that has any independent existence in and of itself...Quantum entanglement .

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Greta, you cannot have a conversation with your real self..it is a blank slate...you can only converse with the story of you, the memory.

You identify with the story because you can not recognise yourself as a blank slate...so you take on the false persona of story which is the myth.

This is dangerous knowledge Greta, you are perfect, but the mind does not want to see perfection, until it does.

I could get killed for talking like this...remember what they did to Jesus? ..and lets not forget how they used to burn those women at the stake, the women that knew who they were and were not afraid to die, they took that knowing to their graves, they were not afraid to look their killers square on in the face without fear...they knew their Greek mythology, they were the original phoenix bird.


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Dontaskme wrote: ↑Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:01 am

Greta wrote: ↑Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:41 pm

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:33 am So to cut a very long tall story short.


The SELF is not a myth....the identified self is a myth.

A sense of self and identity is no myth, but a practical tool for living in a society, or ecosystem for that matter.

It's a myth.

Dogs and cats don't have identities, yes, you explain the obvious, thought is a good problem solving tool for humans since they are the ones who invented the problems in the first place.

If dogs had identities they would also be setting up their own religions on how to save themselves from their sins.

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All knowledge is illusory, it's all story, that has no reality in and of itself apart from silent presence except as a belief.

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But you aren't a dog or a cat! A human being must take responsibility for their 'sins'. Whilst Dontaskme is saddled with time and relativity she is bound to do something about what happens to her. Dam's way of doing something about what happens to her is to think of herself and her 'sins' and debts as non-existent.

True, Dam's insight may enable her to forgive herself, you, me, a rapist, a murderer, or a torturer. But Dam's insight which identifies selves as 'myths' (i.e. they don't exist) will do nothing to avert future rapes, murder, and tortures. In short, if Dam or anyone lives with this pernicious form of determinism they will be as useless as broken wheels.

Dontaskme wrote:

I could get killed for talking like this...remember what they did to Jesus?

But Jesus was very active in time. It was Jesus' very intentional and self-aware actions in time which precipitated his killing by the authorities.Jesus was no Eastern fatalist.

Belinda wrote: ↑Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:55 am

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:01 am

Greta wrote: ↑Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:41 pm
A sense of self and identity is no myth, but a practical tool for living in a society, or ecosystem for that matter.

It's a myth.

Dogs and cats don't have identities, yes, you explain the obvious, thought is a good problem solving tool for humans since they are the ones who invented the problems in the first place.

If dogs had identities they would also be setting up their own religions on how to save themselves from their sins.

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All knowledge is illusory, it's all story, that has no reality in and of itself apart from silent presence except as a belief.

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But you aren't a dog or a cat! A human being must take responsibility for their 'sins'. Whilst Dontaskme is saddled with time and relativity she is bound to do something about what happens to her. Dam's way of doing something about what happens to her is to think of herself and her 'sins' and debts as non-existent.

True, Dam's insight may enable her to forgive herself, you, me, a rapist, a murderer, or a torturer. But Dam's insight which identifies selves as 'myths' (i.e. they don't exist) will do nothing to avert future rapes, murder, and tortures. In short, if Dam or anyone lives with this pernicious form of determinism they will be as useless as broken wheels.

Dontaskme wrote:

I could get killed for talking like this...remember what they did to Jesus?

But Jesus was very active in time. It was Jesus' very intentional and self-aware actions in time which precipitated his killing by the authorities.Jesus was no Eastern fatalist.

As humans we hold the capacity for transcendental meditation to see the bigger picture of the SELF....to see that we are not limited in time and space that we are actually unlimited ..and that the action figure of the body is the only limitation ..not the consciousness driving it....so consciously knowing we are conscious of ourselves...aka we are awareness becoming aware it is aware...we are still responsible of course we are within the dream of separation aka the action figure is still responsible..I never suggested otherwise...of course if you kill a man you are going to be put in jail...that's part of the story that is human consciousness...notice animals don't create stories about themselves...if they kill something they do not get put in prison...they might get put down by a vet, but ultimately, it is only the human story that has invented morals..since without them, there is no order or anyway of controlling their instinctive animals urges...

We seek order and morals because we believe we are going to die one day... so we seek the best for ourselves, we look out for each other...so to speak...it's all part of the play of ego..the ego's want to live...and will do anything and everything to survive.

Simply because the ego is a gift...that is given to us..and all unwanted gifts are immediately returned to sender.

Life is the gift that keeps on giving, just like a mothers milk flows free of charge for her hungry infant child... it gives for free, it comes of it's own natural causes..it's all free in every moment, there is nothing taking your freedom to be in any given moment except beliefs....it's all love, it's all free to be...

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When every human being wakes up to the truth that no one and no thing has ever been born and therefore cannot die..then the world as we know it today would be a whole lot different...not sure how a world like that would look like, but sure enough it would be a whole lot different than it is right now...but then I'm not even sure how a world like that would work...so in essence both evil and good have to live side by side in this play of good verses evil...we all love the villain when we go to watch a movie...and we all the love the fairy godmother who saves the innocents from the nasty villain as well...we want it both ways...although some of us prefer one character over another..and that is where all the tension and war comes from...we are creating it ourselves by believing the good and bad characters actually exist, and that they are always in opposition and competition with each other....that's how powerful the mind is..that it can actualise characters that can oppose each other into existence where there aren't any except the belief there is.

The lion lying down with the lamb story was not to be taken literally, it was a symbolic pointing, pointing to yourself that you have both a dark and light side to your character, and only when you stop fighting with these apparent opposites and rest in the one that has given them to you, namely, your own self...will you come to know real peace and real love for the very first time.

Drop the idea of evil, drop the idea of freedom from evil...and see what's left...what's left is the empty space of pure awareness unforced naturally here bliss of being...that's you're eternal home.

And then out of that perfect storm centre , the mind pops in for a bit,demanding some drama..and that's what you get. You always get what you want to get...and then sometimes you hate not getting what you want...because you believe there is a someone who can get what it wants...it does not see that there is no time machine...this self is the misery self, wanting life to be different than what it is.




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Dontaskme wrote:

Drop the idea of evil, drop the idea of freedom from evil...and see what's left...what's left is the empty space of pure awareness unforced naturally here bliss of being...that's you're eternal home.

Right. But there's no need to claim that meaningful awareness doesn't exist.

Belinda wrote: ↑Fri Mar 09, 2018 11:21 am Dontaskme wrote:

Drop the idea of evil, drop the idea of freedom from evil...and see what's left...what's left is the empty space of pure awareness unforced naturally here bliss of being...that's you're eternal home.

Right. But there's no need to claim that meaningful awareness doesn't exist.

Awareness does not claim or take ownership of anything at all, it's that all allowing unconditional space in which everything appears, including meaning...you misunderstand what awareness actually is.

''The ego is a veil between humans and God.''

For more clarity on what is awareness and the subtle difference between the mind and awareness is explained in the following link...

http://www.prahlad.org/disciples/preman ... RENESS.htm

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Dontaskme,

Like most people I had always thought of these two words as meaning basically the same thing, but N. uses them to point to two very different meanings. When he uses the term "consciousness" he seems to equate that term with the "I Am " and when he talks about "awareness" he is pointing to something altogether beyond the consciousness ("I Am"), that is, to the absolute.

quoted from your link.

By 'awareness' I intended waking and thoughtful consciousness. Not "something altogether beyond the consciousness".

By the above common meaning of 'awareness' there is no need to claim that it does not exist. Common awareness, and awareness as "something altogether beyond the consciousness", can be two equal aspects of reality. I claim that they are two equal aspects of reality.

Belinda wrote: ↑Fri Mar 09, 2018 12:37 pm Dontaskme,

Like most people I had always thought of these two words as meaning basically the same thing, but N. uses them to point to two very different meanings. When he uses the term "consciousness" he seems to equate that term with the "I Am " and when he talks about "awareness" he is pointing to something altogether beyond the consciousness ("I Am"), that is, to the absolute.

quoted from your link.

By 'awareness' I intended waking and thoughtful consciousness. Not "something altogether beyond the consciousness".

By the above common meaning of 'awareness' there is no need to claim that it does not exist. Common awareness, and awareness as "something altogether beyond the consciousness", can be two equal aspects of reality. I claim that they are two equal aspects of reality.

Yes, you are correct...but the claimer is a myth...because life is nondual. I know this is really hard to accept, but it's the truth...the claimer is real only within the dream of separation...no one or thing made the dream character that claims to exist, so there is no one to claim it.

The character has no idea what made this character ''human being''..or, did you the character make yourself...? who is this claimer right now claiming it is the claimer?

Do you see the dilemma...this is so tricky for the human character to accept...and is probably why it's violently rejected..so be it.

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Seen from another angle or point of view....a tree is not separate from that which is looking at it, namely, you...can trees see themselves, can they claim to know they exist?

You are the tree looking at itself..?

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I guess what I'm saying Belinda...

Is that you do not need to make a claim to be...YOU ARE.

All this claiming is what causes the separation in the first place.

But in reality..separation is just not there.

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