Philosophy Now Forum

Posted: **Tue Feb 28, 2023 9:04 am**

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 7:43 am Free will is egocentricity.

In a determined universe, what the heck does egocentricity mean? Or do you think they chose their belief?

Posted: **Tue Feb 28, 2023 9:06 am**

Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 8:39 am There you have it folks, the essence of compatibilism!

Lol. When someone asks you for the essence of a position, I think you're supposed to do your best to steal man it, not just say the most nasty stuff you can about it.

Well, well, well, look who decided to take a dip in William James' "quagmire of evasions" despite my warning - none other than Flannel! I mean, I don't blame him, the quagmire does have a certain alluring quality to it, like a siren song luring sailors to their doom. But, alas, poor Flannel was no match for its murky depths.

I distinctly remember telling Flannel, "Beware the quagmire of evasions, my dear friend, for once you're in, you may never find your way out!" But did he listen? Noooo, he just had to go and try to define free will without properly describing the "free" part of it.

I mean, it's not like describing the "free" component of free will is that hard, right? It's like trying to explain the concept of water without mentioning the wetness. But hey, at least Flannel gave us all a good laugh with his failed attempt. Maybe next time he'll think twice before taking a dip in the quagmire!

Posted: **Tue Feb 28, 2023 9:07 am**

I don't know how I could be evading something in that context. One dude asked something, you answered, there was nothing for me to evade. You're making this awkward...

Steel Manning a position you disagree with is a good philosophical test. Challenge yourself.

Posted: **Tue Feb 28, 2023 9:16 am**

BigMike wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 9:06 am
Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 8:39 am There you have it folks, the essence of compatibilism!

Lol. When someone asks you for the essence of a position, I think you're supposed to do your best to steal man it, not just say the most nasty stuff you can about it.
Well, well, well, look who decided to take a dip in William James' "quagmire of evasions" despite my warning - none other than Flannel! I mean, I don't blame him, the quagmire does have a certain alluring quality to it, like a siren song luring sailors to their doom. But, alas, poor Flannel was no match for its murky depths.

I distinctly remember telling Flannel, "Beware the quagmire of evasions, my dear friend, for once you're in, you may never find your way out!" But did he listen? Noooo, he just had to go and try to define free will without properly describing the "free" part of it.

I mean, it's not like describing the "free" component of free will is that hard, right? It's like trying to explain the concept of water without mentioning the wetness. But hey, at least Flannel gave us all a good laugh with his failed attempt. Maybe next time he'll think twice before taking a dip in the quagmire!

So, let me see if I understand. Mocking and being condescending: peachy if one believes in determinism. Disapproval: hypocritical if one believes in determinism. Is mocking the adult to adult version of spanking?

Posted: **Tue Feb 28, 2023 9:26 am**

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 9:16 am
BigMike wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 9:06 am
Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 8:39 am There you have it folks, the essence of compatibilism!

Lol. When someone asks you for the essence of a position, I think you're supposed to do your best to steal man it, not just say the most nasty stuff you can about it.
Well, well, well, look who decided to take a dip in William James' "quagmire of evasions" despite my warning - none other than Flannel! I mean, I don't blame him, the quagmire does have a certain alluring quality to it, like a siren song luring sailors to their doom. But, alas, poor Flannel was no match for its murky depths.

I distinctly remember telling Flannel, "Beware the quagmire of evasions, my dear friend, for once you're in, you may never find your way out!" But did he listen? Noooo, he just had to go and try to define free will without properly describing the "free" part of it.

I mean, it's not like describing the "free" component of free will is that hard, right? It's like trying to explain the concept of water without mentioning the wetness. But hey, at least Flannel gave us all a good laugh with his failed attempt. Maybe next time he'll think twice before taking a dip in the quagmire!
So, let me see if I understand. Mocking and being condescending: peachy if one believes in determinism. Disapproval: hypocritical if one believes in determinism. Is mocking the adult to adult version of spanking?

Well, my dear inquisitive friend, it appears that engaging in an intellectual debate in this forum is about as fruitful as trying to teach a chicken to play chess. I mean, you can try all you want, but at the end of the day, you're just left with a bunch of confused clucks and a board full of scattered pieces. It's like trying to reason with a stubborn toddler who's determined to stick their fingers in their ears and scream "la la la" until you go away. So, unless you're a glutton for punishment or you enjoy talking to yourself, you might want to save your brain cells and just enjoy the show. After all, sometimes the best way to deal with a bunch of nonsense is to just sit back, relax, and laugh your socks off.

Posted: **Tue Feb 28, 2023 9:28 am**

BigMike wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 9:26 am Well, my dear inquisitive friend, it appears that engaging in an intellectual debate in this forum is about as fruitful as trying to teach a chicken to play chess. I mean, you can try all you want, but at the end of the day, you're just left with a bunch of confused clucks and a board full of scattered pieces. It's like trying to reason with a stubborn toddler who's determined to stick their fingers in their ears and scream "la la la" until you go away. So, unless you're a glutton for punishment or you enjoy talking to yourself, you might want to save your brain cells and just enjoy the show. After all, sometimes the best way to deal with a bunch of nonsense is to just sit back, relax, and laugh your socks off.

I'm sorry that you deal with cognitive dissonance this way. I know you can't help it. And I don't think of you as a chick or a stubborn toddler. Toddlers are learning at an incredible rate. Might be why they sleep so much.

Posted: **Tue Feb 28, 2023 9:32 am**

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 9:28 am
BigMike wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 9:26 am Well, my dear inquisitive friend, it appears that engaging in an intellectual debate in this forum is about as fruitful as trying to teach a chicken to play chess. I mean, you can try all you want, but at the end of the day, you're just left with a bunch of confused clucks and a board full of scattered pieces. It's like trying to reason with a stubborn toddler who's determined to stick their fingers in their ears and scream "la la la" until you go away. So, unless you're a glutton for punishment or you enjoy talking to yourself, you might want to save your brain cells and just enjoy the show. After all, sometimes the best way to deal with a bunch of nonsense is to just sit back, relax, and laugh your socks off.
I'm sorry that you deal with cognitive dissonance this way. I know you can't help it. And I don't think of you as a chick or a stubborn toddler. Toddlers are learning at an incredible rate. Might be why they sleep so much.

Oh my goodness gracious, you are too kind, my dear friend! It's true, I may be dealing with cognitive dissonance, but at least I'm not dealing with it like a platypus trying to knit a sweater. And hey, you're right about toddlers, they are learning at an incredible rate. Maybe I should start taking naps like them, that way I can learn more and maybe even forget all about this cognitive dissonance stuff. But seriously, thank you for your understanding and for not thinking of me as a chicken or a stubborn toddler. I promise to do my best to learn and grow, just like those little tykes with their cute little chubby cheeks and their propensity for falling asleep mid-sentence. Oh, the joys of childhood!

Posted: **Tue Feb 28, 2023 9:42 am**

I don't know why big Mike went so hostile all of a sudden. I thought he was a pretty chill dude and was appreciating his input in this thread, and then suddenly without context he starts accusing me of evasion - I still can't see contextually what I was supposed to have been evading - and now the hostility is just cranked up to 11 suddenly.

I don't really know what switched for him. How bizarre. Maybe he took my "steelmanning" challenge as more hostile than I intended it, idk.

Posted: **Tue Feb 28, 2023 9:59 am**

Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 8:27 am When you are free to act according to your will, that IS free will.

Ha! That statement is as misguided as a giraffe trying to play limbo. Free will isn't just about being able to do whatever you please like a kid in a candy store. It's about making choices that are truly your own, not just the result of some external influence. So let's not confuse "free to act" with "free will" - that's like mistaking a potato for a porcupine!

Posted: **Tue Feb 28, 2023 10:15 am**

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 9:04 am
popeye1945 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 7:43 am
Free will is egocentricity.

In a determined universe, what the heck does egocentricity mean? Or do you think they chose their belief?

Iwannaplato,

Perhaps you believe that if you are not in control that defines determinism, when it just means you are part of something much larger than yourself. Egocentrism comes quite naturally to the individual, for in some very real sense we all experience ourselves as the center of our own universe, that is what it is to experience the world. It is a limited vision, one that is detrimental to being a healthy part of something larger than yourself, realize you are not in this world you are of this world, a world that governs your every aspect. You are a reactionary creature, that is how you function in the world.

Posted: **Tue Feb 28, 2023 10:16 am**

BigMike wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 9:59 am
Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 8:27 am When you are free to act according to your will, that IS free will.
It's about making choices that are truly your own, not just the result of some external influence.

On the surface that seems largely consistent with being free to act according to my will. If it's my will to do something, and I do it, that choice was truly my own. If I was coerced or physically forced to choose it, it wasn't

Posted: **Tue Feb 28, 2023 10:20 am**

Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 10:16 am
BigMike wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 9:59 am
Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 8:27 am When you are free to act according to your will, that IS free will.
It's about making choices that are truly your own, not just the result of some external influence.
On the surface that seems largely consistent with being free to act according to my will. If it's my will to do something, and I do it, that choice was truly my own. If I was coerced or physically forced to choose it, it wasn't

Well, butter my biscuits and call me a toaster! If I may, I think you're missing the point like a fly trying to find its way out of a closed window. Sure, if you do something of your own volition, that's technically an expression of your free will. But the question is, where did that will come from in the first place? Did it just pop out of thin air like a genie out of a lamp, or was it shaped by countless factors like your upbringing, social pressures, and past experiences? Don't get me wrong, you're free to act however you please, but let's not confuse that with having true, unencumbered free will - that's about as likely as a penguin winning a hot dog eating contest!

Posted: **Tue Feb 28, 2023 10:22 am**

BigMike wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 10:20 am
Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 10:16 am
BigMike wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 9:59 am
It's about making choices that are truly your own, not just the result of some external influence.
On the surface that seems largely consistent with being free to act according to my will. If it's my will to do something, and I do it, that choice was truly my own. If I was coerced or physically forced to choose it, it wasn't
Well, butter my biscuits and call me a toaster! If I may, I think you're missing the point like a fly trying to find its way out of a closed window. Sure, if you do something of your own volition, that's technically an expression of your free will. But the question is, where did that will come from in the first place? Did it just pop out of thin air like a genie out of a lamp, or was it shaped by countless factors like your upbringing, social pressures, and past experiences? Don't get me wrong, you're free to act however you please, but let's not confuse that with having true, unencumbered free will - that's about as likely as a penguin winning a hot dog eating contest!

You're talking to a compatibilist. I have no problem with a will that was shaped by the context it was created in. I have no problem with a will that is simply the emergent consequence of the physics happening in my brain. I'm a compatibilist. These things don't bother me.

Posted: **Tue Feb 28, 2023 10:57 am**

Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 10:22 am
BigMike wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 10:20 am
Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 10:16 am
On the surface that seems largely consistent with being free to act according to my will. If it's my will to do something, and I do it, that choice was truly my own. If I was coerced or physically forced to choose it, it wasn't
Well, butter my biscuits and call me a toaster! If I may, I think you're missing the point like a fly trying to find its way out of a closed window. Sure, if you do something of your own volition, that's technically an expression of your free will. But the question is, where did that will come from in the first place? Did it just pop out of thin air like a genie out of a lamp, or was it shaped by countless factors like your upbringing, social pressures, and past experiences? Don't get me wrong, you're free to act however you please, but let's not confuse that with having true, unencumbered free will - that's about as likely as a penguin winning a hot dog eating contest!
You're talking to a compatibilist. I have no problem with a will that was shaped by the context it was created in. I have no problem with a will that is simply the emergent consequence of the physics happening in my brain. I'm a compatibilist. These things don't bother me.

Here's the kicker: if our will isn't truly free, then that means free will doesn't exist! All we've got left is plain old will, without the free part. And let's be honest, "plain old will" doesn't sound nearly as impressive as "free will". It's like getting excited about a hamburger when you were expecting a juicy steak.

So, my friend, believing in free will when we know it's not really free is a big old contradiction in terms. It's like saying you're a vegan who loves bacon. It just doesn't make sense! Instead, let's embrace the truth and live as intellectual adults. Let's dare to know that there is no free will and face the consequences like champs. After all, if life is a game of rock-paper-scissors, we might as well accept that we're all just throwing rocks and move on with our lives. Grow up!

Posted: **Tue Feb 28, 2023 10:59 am**

Thanks for your feedback.

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