Philosophy Now Forum

attofishpi wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 10:56 am

Harbal wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 10:52 am

attofishpi wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 10:18 am I don't understand that Harbal, your soul IS you.

If I reduce "me" down to its essence, I am consciousness with a particular identity. My identity is formed from my experiences, and my memories. After death, when my brain, in which my experiences and memories are stored, and on which my consciousness depends for its existence, is no longer functioning, what remains that is in any sense me?

Well that's easy - your POV.

So in the case of reincarnation, reborn with all your previous knowledge wiped, but still you and your point-of-view.

I've thought about this a bit more, and I think I know what you mean, but what about consciousness? Do you think the soul is conscious, and if so, does the you I am communicating with now occupy the same consciousness as your soul? Is the awareness that you are experiencing now your soul?

Harbal wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 12:09 pm

attofishpi wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 10:56 am

Harbal wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 10:52 am

If I reduce "me" down to its essence, I am consciousness with a particular identity. My identity is formed from my experiences, and my memories. After death, when my brain, in which my experiences and memories are stored, and on which my consciousness depends for its existence, is no longer functioning, what remains that is in any sense me?

Well that's easy - your POV.

So in the case of reincarnation, reborn with all your previous knowledge wiped, but still you and your point-of-view.

I've thought about this a bit more, and I think I know what you mean, but what about consciousness? Do you think the soul is conscious, and if so, does the you I am communicating with now occupy the same consciousness as your soul? Is the awareness that you are experiencing now your soul?

Wow. So from my comprehension, the soul has consciousness via the human body (*in our instance) ...and yes, when you communicate with me you are talking to my unique soul within the universe (and a body) and when I respond I am talking to your soul (which is unique within the universe).

Agent Smith wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 8:52 am From where to where, eh? For my money, I'd say no soul, but I'd be willing to hook you up with someone who could give you one and guessing, not knowing, how you are, it's free of charge!

Thank you for the offer. I've put in another vigorous attempt at reestablishing a closer bond between myself and the woman I love. I've sort of proposed to her but in a more robust and dynamic, less rigid way. I'm waiting on her reply. Please wish me luck. She's all I want in this world and out of this world.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 12:25 pm
Wow. So from my comprehension, the soul has consciousness via the human body (*in our instance) ...and yes, when you communicate with me you are talking to my unique soul within the universe (and a body) and when I respond I am talking to your soul (which is unique within the universe).

This suggests that the soul cannot exist without a physical body, and maybe even that it is exclusive to one particular body. And we don't actually know what consciousness is. Is it something that is created by the brain, or is it maybe a fundamental property of the universe that our brain somehow taps into, or something else? Whatever it is, I can't help wondering how consciousness/soul that is associated with a particular brain can be considered to be the same consciousness/soul when it is associated with a different brain.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 9:50 am I've never had a NDE personally, but my mum did when she was involved in a nasty car crash in her 20's. She told me her experience had helped her let go of the fear of dying.

Thanks for your thoughtful response.

Yes, no more fear of dying. For me, having an out-of-body experience of awareness without any attachment or identity, free of fear and need and judgement, changed the way I thought about things after I was back in this body and this world/life. I had a new sense of things not being so terribly serious, while at the same time having a sense of more freedom and capability as a result. It has been a relief and an inspiration.

(As I've also written about before...) Years later, I had another profound experience during a walking meditation in the forest of suddenly seeing 'behind the worldly veil' with startling clarity for a few moments, and being filled with the understanding that all was perfect and fine. I wished that we humans could share and live with such an awareness, but I understood that was not where we were at nor what we were doing. That experience, too, has impacted my way of thinking and living ever since.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 9:50 amI was no longer in control of myself, it was so intense and made me want to jolt out of the sensation, which I did. I've only ever experienced this once in my whole life, the experience has never repeated, and it's something I'll never forget.

Such experiences/glimpses stay with you! I think 'being in control' within this human cocoon is a huge part of our human need/experience, and our minds and bodies aren't really made for much beyond this... but that's okay! When we poke our heads through the veil just enough to see beyond the limitations of our world/reality, I think we can use that broadened awareness to expand and free our capability and potential from the ego creations/beliefs we might otherwise be intoxicated with.

Simply having the realization that there's 'more' than the human entrapments, and that this is not the end-all/be-all, offers me more tools and capability to see and be and do more than I otherwise might. The reason why I'm here no longer matters. I'm engaging in what is and continually exploring with as much thoughtfulness and appreciation as I can muster at any given time. And when I seem to 'screw up' or thrash around too much, it's all just part of the dance. No need for severe condemnation. Just more of a chance to learn/practice greater compassion and love.

I think the only thing that might matter beyond this human adventure ride/reality/world is the kind of energy we've nurtured/expressed/created here. I don't know -- but I try to create and act for the right reasons with awareness beyond the limits of the human stage and stories. There's a lot of play. Any reasonable god would 'get this'. It's beautiful and worthy of love. Anyone who takes it all too seriously is caught up in drama.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 9:50 am...our impression of being an ''individual soul'' who is having a separate experience is like the impression a wave arising from the ocean has of itself. The ocean endlessly generates infinite numbers of waves, and each one believes for the brief duration of it's appearance that itself, and all the other waves, are not connected.

Perhaps there is one ocean of consciousness, and it generates infinite numbers of points of attention. You are a point of attention in the ocean of consciousness. So am I. But really, behind our masks of separate individual identities and experiences, we are really one thing experiencing ourself under the temporary arrangement of taking on a specific role wearing different masks, some of which are more denser and heavier than others. But some masks are more transparent in the sense they can see more clearly the illusion of separateness.

Very nice description. We would not judge the ocean and its waves as being right or wrong for what they simply are and do. Nor would we demand that the ocean be divided up into specific independently working parts. It all works together as one, and it's more vast and varied than our small human identities can fathom, and that's wonderful and perfect. We might as well be content swimming in it and improving our surfing skills.

Harbal wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 7:29 pm

seeds wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 6:58 pm If nothing else, Harbal, I highly doubt that there could exist a more "natural" and "organic" vision of reality than what the "Ultimate Seed" theory suggests.

In your acorn/tree analogy, we are the acorns, but why do you think we aren't already the trees?

For the same reason that acorns aren't yet trees, because our souls that are still held within the "seedpods" of our human bodies have yet to "germinate."

I'll leave it to your imagination as to what the process of "germinating" entails.

You asked atto the following questions,...

Harbal wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 12:09 pm Do you think the soul is conscious, and if so, does the you I am communicating with now occupy the same consciousness as your soul? Is the awareness that you are experiencing now your soul?

...and the answer is YES to all of that.

The soul is just another name for your central consciousness (also known as your "you," or the "eye" of your mind, or your "I Am-ness").

Your soul is the living, self-aware core of your inner-being that forms the structural basis of your singularly unique and personal identity.

As always, I'm just speculating here, but contrary to popular ideas regarding reincarnation, or the nonsense that God could simply create a new soul out of thin air at the snap of her divine fingers, our souls did not exist prior to our physical birth a few years ago on this planet.

And the point is that even God requires a mechanistic process by-which to awaken her own offspring into existence, and the human reproductive system is how she does it.

(I do believe we've had a similar conversation in the Christianity thread, so please forgive me if my old man brain is causing me to repeat stuff.)

Harbal wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 7:29 pm There is nothing to suggest that trees go on to a higher level of existence when they die, what evidence is there that we do?

Well, for one thing, trees (or rabbits, or mice, or flies, or frogs or dogs, etc., etc.) are not created in the image of God (i.e., are not her literal offspring), no more than those same beings are your human mother's offspring.

As the German theologian Meister Eckhart once stated:

“The seed of God is in us: Pear seeds grow into pear trees; Hazel seeds into hazel trees; And God seeds into God.”

And secondly, I have made it quite clear in several annoyingly repetitive posts that humans (in general) cannot be allowed to have any sort of irrefutable evidence of the existence of God and of the existence of a higher (and more desirable) life after death.

Why?

Because they will seek it out prematurely and thus drain the earth of the means by which new souls are created.

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Harbal wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 7:29 pm But supposing you are right, and the soul does "transcend", what does it take of us with it? Our consciousness, memories, thoughts and experiences are brain dependant, so when the brain dies and these things are gone, what is left of our identity that carries on as the soul?

I've often wondered about that myself.

I mean, wouldn't it be better if when we are birthed into our true and ultimate form that our earthly memories are wiped clean so that, for example, we don't carry any grudges with us against the humans who may have wronged us while on earth.

However, that being said, the "Ultimate Seed" theory implies that we will be so utterly "changed" in form and being from what we are now, along with entering into a context of reality that will be so profoundly different and advanced compared to our present context of reality,...

...that it will make our momentary stay within this universe (and the circumstances we experienced therein) seem to be no more relevant (psychologically) than that of our momentary stay within our mother's womb.

Inevitable jokes aside, it's highly unlikely that you are upset about anything that transpired while you were suspended within the amniotic water of your mother's womb, right?

Well, I suggest that we will all have that same attitude with respect to the universe (God's womb) once we awaken into our true and eternal form - outside of it.

And not only that, but the "Ultimate Seed" theory also implies that, post death, the very substance from which our memories and dreams are created, will no longer appear to us as illusory (phantom-like) phenomena within our minds, but, instead, will be just as "real" appearing as is the outer phenomena we experience in this universe.

In other words, in whatever form the mental fabric of God's own mind appears to her in such a way that allowed her to willfully shape it into stars, and planets, and human brains,...

...likewise, our own mental fabric will appear similarly to us.

And if you think that's crazy, realize that even in our present state of being, the phenomena we experience within our own minds when we are engrossed in a vivid dream, looks, and feels, and sounds, and tastes, and smells "almost" as real as, again, the phenomena we experience outward.

In which case, it's not that big of a stretch to imagine that at the moment of death, we will not only awaken completely to the inner-dimension of our own mind, but we will then take full control of an infinitely malleable substance from which we will be able to create multi-sensory phenomena that will - from then on - be "completely real" to us.

And that brings us to the question of what the word "real" means.

I mean, physicists themselves have proclaimed that universal matter is composed of 99.9999999 percent empty space.

Furthermore, in commenting on his assessment of Heisenberg’s theories regarding the quantum underpinning of matter, physicist (and author) Nick Herbert stated the following...

The entire visible universe, what Bishop Berkeley called "the mighty frame of the world," rests ultimately on a strange quantum kind of being no more substantial than a promise.

Now, if you just couple all of that with the fact that quantum physics itself is implying that all universal matter is created from a substance that seems to be capable of becoming absolutely anything "imaginable,"...

...then, clearly, it is not that big of a leap to see how all of that fits in with (and supports) the "Ultimate Seed" theory.

The bottom line is that not only do you and I have a totally different notion as to what the word "memories" mean in the context of the afterlife, but can you now see how problematic the definition of the word "real" is?

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Now, getting back to your original question...

Harbal wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 7:29 pm But supposing you are right, and the soul does "transcend", what does it take of us with it? Our consciousness, memories, thoughts and experiences are brain dependant, so when the brain dies and these things are gone, what is left of our identity that carries on as the soul?

Well, first of all (according to the "Ultimate Seed" theory), our personal (permanent/eternal) identities are that which is formed at the moment of birth and has nothing to do with the gradual accruing of that which forms the "galaxy" of thoughts that comprise our temporary earthly ego identities.

For example, if an infant dies, say, an hour after birth, clearly, its inner soul has had no time to develop any sort of the type of (ego-based) identity you are referring to.

Therefore, what that suggests (to me, anyway) is that it doesn't matter one whit what your human ego identity was while on earth, for your soul (your "I Am-ness") that sits at the center of the aforementioned "galaxy" of ever-changing thoughts will have a literal eternity to develop into its truer and higher identity in the context of "true reality."

Now, with that being said, your questions seem to be rooted in the assumption that souls can only exist by reason of their association with physical matter (i.e., brains).

Yet, seeing that fairly recently it has been proclaimed that approximately 95 percent of the entire universe seems to be created from what has been termed "dark energy" and "dark matter," which is something that humans have no way of physically measuring in order to determine what it actually is,...

...then why is it so hard to entertain the notion of there being some other form of "dark" energy that not only forms the basis of life, mind, and consciousness (as is implied in the concept of "substance dualism"),...

...but can also maintain the existence of a living (incorporeal) soul without the soul needing to be encapsulated in a physical brain, which, again, is something that is not only 99.9999999 percent empty space, but whatever the remaining substance is that the material brain is actually made of, is, again, "...no more substantial than a promise..."?

The ultimate point to which I am leading is that the "Ultimate Seed" theory suggests that ultimate reality is an "inversion" of what we are presently experiencing, in that instead of minds being encapsulated in matter, matter is encapsulated in minds, with minds (souls) being the only things that can be considered as being "real."

As always, I'm the first to admit that I could be wrong about all of this. However, I feel it is important that everyone tries to be open to the possibility that the substance from which minds (souls) are created is not only of a "higher order" than matter, but is the foundational essence of the "All-That-Is."

And with that last statement, allow me to present a visual representation of what I mean by, again, the "All-That-Is," beyond which there is only pure and utter nothingness...



As an interesting sidenote, I created the above image long before I read the following quote from the book: "COSMIC COINCIDENCES - Dark Matter, Mankind, and Anthropic Cosmology" by John Gribbin and Martin Rees...

Quantum cosmology allows the possibility of creating not just one universe but an infinite number of universes out of nothing at all. The universes may be inter-connected in some complex way, as new universes are born within, but then pinch off from, the vacuum of old universes, producing a complex multidimensional foam. Our universe may simply be a region of space-time that has pinched off from another bubble.

The point is that if you just add life, mind, and consciousness to that materialistic theory, then you have a near perfect parallel to the "Ultimate Seed" theory.

(Please forgive me for such a lengthy reply, but this stuff regarding the speculative ontology of the soul is complicated and cannot be presented in Twitteresque size posts.)
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seeds wrote: ↑Sat Feb 25, 2023 12:38 am (Please forgive me for such a lengthy reply, but this stuff regarding the speculative ontology of the soul is complicated and cannot be presented in Twitteresque size posts.)
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Thank you, I appreciate the trouble you've gone to in explaining. Not that I understand it all, but it is interesting. Is this a belief or theory that is held by others, or is it all your own work?

The only thing I would take issue with is this:

trees (or rabbits, or mice, or flies, or frogs or dogs, etc., etc.) are not created in the image of God (i.e., are not her literal offspring), no more than those same beings are your human mother's offspring.

I don't believe that human beings are special. As far as nature and the universe are concerned, we are just one among many other forms of life. That's how it seems to me, at least.

Harbal wrote: ↑Sat Feb 25, 2023 1:18 am
I don't believe that human beings are special. As far as nature and the universe are concerned, we are just one among many other forms of life. That's how it seems to me, at least.

...and ALL that nature ever implied; not an iota more. In science as well, there has never been a discovery of there being a probability of more; just the opposite.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 12:41 pm

Agent Smith wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 8:52 am From where to where, eh? For my money, I'd say no soul, but I'd be willing to hook you up with someone who could give you one and guessing, not knowing, how you are, it's free of charge!

Thank you for the offer. I've put in another vigorous attempt at reestablishing a closer bond between myself and the woman I love. I've sort of proposed to her but in a more robust and dynamic, less rigid way. I'm waiting on her reply. Please wish me luck. She's all I want in this world and out of this world.

Good luck mon ami.

A soul is a misunderstanding.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 7:09 pm Very nice description. We would not judge the ocean and its waves as being right or wrong for what they simply are and do. Nor would we demand that the ocean be divided up into specific independently working parts. It all works together as one, and it's more vast and varied than our small human identities can fathom, and that's wonderful and perfect. We might as well be content swimming in it and improving our surfing skills.

Thank you Lacy for your fluent expression into the nature of oneness. I do enjoy reading what you have to say about it.

Some more thoughts: We do not have consciousness, rather, we are consciousness swimming around as a fish is to water. The universal cosmic joke is comparable to where one fish asks another fish "how's the water?" The other fish replies, "what the hell is water?" The point: it's easy to forget that what surrounds you is only normal because it's what you know.

A fish does not swim, it is SWUM. A bird does not fly, it is FLOWN

We cannot SEE consciousness) we can only KNOW consciousness.



Uncle Albert is another Piscean Philosopher.

Harbal wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 11:43 am

Age wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 11:11 am

Harbal wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 10:08 am After death, when my brain, in which my experiences and memories are stored, and on which my consciousness depends for its existence, is no longer functioning, what remains that is in any sense me?

Those, stored, 'experiences and memories', which 'you' speak of here, exist as 'thoughts', which, as I have been saying from the outset in this forum, the word 'you', 'me', 'person', or 'i' refers to the invisible 'thoughts', and it is the 'invisible' part of the human being, which is said to be the 'soul' and the one that 'lives on', or 'remains' after-(the)-life of the body is no more. That is; after the human body has stopped breathing and stopped pumping blood.

That, literally, invisible 'person' or 'me', in EVERY human body, remains in the sense that those 'thoughts', which were previously changing in a living human body, were being 'passed on' and/or 'forming' "other" 'people', or 'souls', if you like, which keep that 'old soul', if you like, 'living on', in this One and ONLY place, also known as the Universe, or Life, Itself.

That is a legitimate definition of the soul, but not, I suspect, the most commonly agreed upon.

I do NOT know of ANY one else with this definition and I have certainly NOT heard NOR read this definition anywhere else.

Harbal wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 11:43 am I want to know what the kind of soul that has an actual existence after physical death consists of.

1. What is the DIFFERENCE between 'an existence' and 'an actual existence'? And,

2. There is NO 'soul' that has 'an actual existence' after the physical body is not breathing nor pumping blood anymore, within that body. That 'soul' is, in a way, just living 'now, or have 'an (actual) existence', within other bodies.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 6:04 pm

attofishpi wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 9:50 am You make me sound like I am some sort of Christian evangelist!!!

No, you just say things like this...

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sun Feb 19, 2023 10:53 pm (according to my sage) atheists continue to be reborn into stupid, silly, shallow afterlives (they progress to be raised by atheists).

Back to the thread topic...

attofishpi wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 9:50 am what do you believe regarding 'soul'? Do you think you have one, and do you have any belief in reincarnation?

I think the concept of a soul tends to be yet another human idea/belief in individuality that lives on, and no I don't believe in that (personally). I know there are compelling cases for reincarnation but it seems to me that they might just as easily be explained by an interconnected, whole web of energy that we're all part of. In other words, we might all have access to memories of, or tap into being, an ancient temple priestess or some other 'past' figure... or anything else. We might all be part of everything.

When I refer to my 'soul' (e.g. "I feel it in my soul"), I'm talking about the depth or wholeness of my human self. When this body dies, I don't think there will be a use for all of the ideas that were associated with this world.

Does ANY one think there would be a use for ALL of the ideas that were associated with one human body?

Lacewing wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 6:04 pm Rather, it might be a different kind of awareness and creative potential not associated with a specific individual.