Philosophy Now Forum

Sculptor wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 5:03 pmWhere do they run to?
We could always invade Monaco, and the other off-shore cash havens.

I'm sure they'd find some type of political protection and country willing to compromise themselves for money.

I think that might be what this is all about...how much a society sells-out its sons and daughters, determines its fate.

Skepdick wrote: ↑Sun Jun 04, 2023 10:21 amThere's one society: all the humans in existence, their interactions and self-organization which gives ries to the observed sub-divisions into countries,political factions, identifies, philosophies etc. all of those categories you end up calling societies (plural) are emergent phenomena.

This is trivialy true that anybody who denies this needs their head checked. Irrespective of your nationality or society (as you conceptualize it) you grew up in you are still human with basic human rights. Are you not?

Humanism is simply false. "We are all One" (Secular Humanism) is incorrect.

Skepdick wrote: ↑Sun Jun 04, 2023 10:21 amIt's almost like you refuse to acknowledge the class mobility I am pointing at.

Being poor today is better than being poor 5000 years ago. That IS class mobility.

The entire class of people we call "poor" has moved such that the experience of the members of this chass has drastically improved.

The entire class has shrunk also.

Not when comparing 2023 to 1999, or to 1970, or to 1950, in the West.

Skepdick wrote: ↑Sun Jun 04, 2023 10:21 amThere's only one past. The Immutable past. History.

One past, with countless opinions/perspectives/sides to it. Your side happens to be incorrect.

Skepdick wrote: ↑Sun Jun 04, 2023 10:21 amWhich is why we've progressed to oppose such barbaric tradition in "The West.". For most part.

"For most part." Except for its current revival in the West!

Skepdick wrote: ↑Sun Jun 04, 2023 10:21 amSo you can pin-point this one aspect of society and you are over-generalizing it to amount to the decline of The West?!?

By "The West" most people mean culturally the Anglo-sphere, USA, Canada, UK, Australia, and Western Europe. Geographically it includes Latin America, but only in the sections they've adopted Anglican values/culture. Brazilians are in the West, but not really "Westerners" per se, for this reason.

Skepdick wrote: ↑Sun Jun 04, 2023 10:21 amWhere did you see the word "money" anywhere in what I said?

Poverty is about the worst overall quality of life amongst your fellow humans! You are the one who keeps trying to reduce it to arbitrary material things like property ownership; or genital mutilation.

Yes so there are many factors and measures of decline, hence other peoples' arguments for it thus far.

FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Sun Jun 04, 2023 12:19 pmYou are a racist though. You've already told us multiple that you think black people are bloodthirsty. You are intent on accusing JEws of running the banking system even though you are using absurd antique tropes to do so.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbcCFCsEe2Y

There's many more where this video comes from too. Pull your head out of the sand. Set aside your small hat. Merely look at Reality.

Stop kvetching for one minute.

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 12:47 am

FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Sun Jun 04, 2023 12:19 pmYou are a racist though. You've already told us multiple that you think black people are bloodthirsty. You are intent on accusing JEws of running the banking system even though you are using absurd antique tropes to do so.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbcCFCsEe2Y

There's many more where this video comes from too. Pull your head out of the sand. Set aside your small hat. Merely look at Reality.

Stop kvetching for one minute.

You are attempting to make a racial point with that video about black people being violent? That proves my point that you think entirely in racial terms.

racist reflection of the day. racists read the following to themselves: i could never know if the things about a race i perceive as inferior or degenerate were intrinsic to the race in question or a product/result of an environment... such that if i took a sample of the race and put it in a different environment, those inferior and degenerate qualities were no longer produced, making my problem with them social and/or economic rather than racial.  end reflection.

on the other hand, obvious cases of inferiority, e.g., african ermericans having a gene that makes them highly susceptible to sickle cell anemia of some sort, are trivial enough not to warrant or justify real concern about intrinsic racial characteristics being meaningfully inferior.

also, personal subjective aesthetic preferences like finding african ermercians unattractive doesn't qualify as an objective example of some kind of inferiority in terms of evolutionary fitness (like the sickle cell thing might). neither does the fact that african ermercian's muscle is fatigued at a slower rate than other races qualify other races as inferior, except trivially (maybe in some types of sport).

Same with intelligence levels. All races produce sample groups of some straight up dumbasses if the socio-economic circumstances permit. And if u average everything out, IQ point differences are negligible.

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 12:35 am

Sculptor wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 5:06 pmNot remotely relevant.
And not remotely true.
Our alphabet is originally Phoenician.
But words predate any attempt to write them down.
Language is primarily linguistic and not literal.

Maia wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 4:47 pmWhy do you keep going on about the alphabet? It has nothing to do with the language. You could can write a language in any alphabet you like.

Incorrect, the Alphabet is the base structure of phonetic representation, attaching sound and phonemes to symbols.

The Græco-Romans extended the Phoenician system, especially the Hellenic Greeks with the introduction of Philosophy.

English is more Latin than it is Germanic. Both of you are simply wrong. You may take this argument to a new thread if you like.

So the alphabet came first, before spoken language? An interesting theory, if that's the right word.

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 12:44 am Humanism is simply false. "We are all One" (Secular Humanism) is incorrect.

I am not arguing for "humanism"; or "we are one". Why are you trying to put words in my mouth?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System

A system is a group of interacting or interrelated elements that act according to a set of rules to form a unified whole.
A system, surrounded and influenced by its environment, is described by its boundaries, structure and purpose and is expressed in its functioning. Systems are the subjects of study of systems theory and other systems sciences.

Systems have several common properties and characteristics, including structure, function(s), behavior and interconnectivity.

Humans interacting - a system.
Tribes of humans interacting - a system.
Countries of humans interacting - a system.
All humans interacting - a system.

When you look at this system (that is human society evolving over thousands of years) you will see some trends;and some common patterns in terms of social goals, values and qualities we all seem to strive for. Despite our differences.

Like the fact that we are all, generally trying to make the world better for ourselves; and sometimes (and unfortunately) better for ourselves at the expense of others.

I mean, here you trying to raise the alarm about The West's decline. I presume because you want to do something about it to the satisfaction of your perception.

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 12:44 am Not when comparing 2023 to 1999, or to 1970, or to 1950, in the West.

That's the epitome of reductionist cherry-picking.

Yesterday between 14:30 and 16:28 in this tiny village in the South of France it was much better than 1950, or 1970 or 1999.

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 12:44 am One past, with countless opinions/perspectives/sides to it. Your side happens to be incorrect.

Countless opinions/perspectives/sides to ONE past.

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 12:44 am Your side happens to be incorrect.

And your side happens to be incorrect about me being incorrect.

Which is why you can't produce any evidence.

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 12:44 am "For most part." Except for its current revival in the West!

This flexible and abstract "West", eh? I bet if we had to unpack what you mean by that term you'll be using the word "except" a lot...

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 12:44 am By "The West" most people mean culturally the Anglo-sphere, USA, Canada, UK, Australia, and Western Europe. Geographically it includes Latin America, but only in the sections they've adopted Anglican values/culture. Brazilians are in the West, but not really "Westerners" per se, for this reason.

This seems rather geographicaply discombobulated. Why Western Europe but not Europe as a whole? Why Australia but not Japan or Malaysia?

What is the shared trait/property which makes you cherry-pick those scattered geographic areas and label them "The West". What do they have in common to deserve being grouped together?

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 12:44 am Yes so there are many factors and measures of decline, hence other peoples' arguments for it thus far.

There are many factors. Which is why I keep asking you (and you keep ignoring the question) when you take all of those factors into account and speak in in general/overal terms: is being poor in 2023 BC the same, better or worse than being poor in 2023 AD?

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 12:35 am

Sculptor wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 5:06 pmNot remotely relevant.
And not remotely true.
Our alphabet is originally Phoenician.
But words predate any attempt to write them down.
Language is primarily linguistic and not literal.

Maia wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 4:47 pmWhy do you keep going on about the alphabet? It has nothing to do with the language. You could can write a language in any alphabet you like.

Incorrect, the Alphabet is the base structure of phonetic representation, attaching sound and phonemes to symbols.

The Græco-Romans extended the Phoenician system, especially the Hellenic Greeks with the introduction of Philosophy.

English is more Latin than it is Germanic. Both of you are simply wrong. You may take this argument to a new thread if you like.

FFS.
DO you think language came before or after writing?
THink about the question before you answer. And when you have your answer you can hide your head in shame.

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 12:37 am

Sculptor wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 5:03 pmWhere do they run to?
We could always invade Monaco, and the other off-shore cash havens.

I'm sure they'd find some type of political protection and country willing to compromise themselves for money.

That's what the Czar and Czarina said.

I think that might be what this is all about...how much a society sells-out its sons and daughters, determines its fate.

FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 1:11 amYou are attempting to make a racial point with that video about black people being violent? That proves my point that you think entirely in racial terms.

No, you are an Accuser and projecting your own racism. You don't even know what you're talking about, even when confronted with the reality of black-majority populations and what they do when unpoliced.

You're simple-minded.

promethean75 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 3:49 am racist reflection of the day. racists read the following to themselves: i could never know if the things about a race i perceive as inferior or degenerate were intrinsic to the race in question or a product/result of an environment... such that if i took a sample of the race and put it in a different environment, those inferior and degenerate qualities were no longer produced, making my problem with them social and/or economic rather than racial.  end reflection.

on the other hand, obvious cases of inferiority, e.g., african ermericans having a gene that makes them highly susceptible to sickle cell anemia of some sort, are trivial enough not to warrant or justify real concern about intrinsic racial characteristics being meaningfully inferior.

also, personal subjective aesthetic preferences like finding african ermercians unattractive doesn't qualify as an objective example of some kind of inferiority in terms of evolutionary fitness (like the sickle cell thing might). neither does the fact that african ermercian's muscle is fatigued at a slower rate than other races qualify other races as inferior, except trivially (maybe in some types of sport).

Same with intelligence levels. All races produce sample groups of some straight up dumbasses if the socio-economic circumstances permit. And if u average everything out, IQ point differences are negligible.

Horrendous argumentation...

If somebody wants to know about the reality of racial behaviors, you investigate where their demographic is the block majority. In the United States, this generally means Chicago, Detroit, areas of black ghettos. Gang violence is the norm there. It's not "racist" when it's true.

Maia wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 5:41 amSo the alphabet came first, before spoken language?

Sculptor wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 10:10 amFFS.
DO you think language came before or after writing?
THink about the question before you answer. And when you have your answer you can hide your head in shame.

That's not what I said nor implied.

The English Alphabet is only minorly Germanic, definitely not a majority like you claimed.

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 4:19 pm

Maia wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 5:41 amSo the alphabet came first, before spoken language?

That's not what I said nor implied.

The English Alphabet is only minorly Germanic, definitely not a majority like you claimed.

I made the claim about the language, not the alphabet. What is it that you're not understanding here?

Skepdick wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 6:46 amI am not arguing for "humanism"; or "we are one".

Except when you claimed "We are all one society"...

Skepdick wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 6:46 amAnd your side happens to be incorrect about me being incorrect.

Which is why you can't produce any evidence.

Read this thread and other peoples' opinions again.

I asked a question. Most agree that the West is in decline. You have not proved that it is not.

Skepdick wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 6:46 amThis seems rather geographicaply discombobulated. Why Western Europe but not Europe as a whole? Why Australia but not Japan or Malaysia?

What is the shared trait/property which makes you cherry-pick those scattered geographic areas and label them "The West". What do they have in common to deserve being grouped together?

Because large societies associate as such. Much of it is political, like the US-NATO alliance, or WEF operating securely in the United States and representing most US corporations.

Skepdick wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 6:46 amThere are many factors. Which is why I keep asking you (and you keep ignoring the question) when you take all of those factors into account and speak in in general/overal terms: is being poor in 2023 BC the same, better or worse than being poor in 2023 AD?

It depends on what being poor is like in both circumstances. It might be worse now.

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 4:19 pm

Maia wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 5:41 amSo the alphabet came first, before spoken language?

Sculptor wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 10:10 amFFS.
DO you think language came before or after writing?
THink about the question before you answer. And when you have your answer you can hide your head in shame.

That's not what I said nor implied.

The English Alphabet is only minorly Germanic, definitely not a majority like you claimed.

There is no such thing as the "English ALphabet" FFS.