Philosophy Now Forum

lol. In any case I don't think people need to be paid in "heaven".

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 2:12 am lol. In any case I don't think people need to be paid in "heaven".

Who's talking about heaven???

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 2:13 am

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 2:12 am lol. In any case I don't think people need to be paid in "heaven".

Who's talking about heaven???

Well, if you were talking about Hell it's a no brainer (70 sluts not virgins - no training required)!!

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 2:14 am

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 2:13 am

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 2:12 am lol. In any case I don't think people need to be paid in "heaven".

Who's talking about heaven???

Well, if you were talking about Hell it's a no brainer (70 sluts not virgins - no training required)!!

Talking about the here and now. Who has the patience to wait for something like that?!

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 2:16 am

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 2:14 am

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 2:13 am

Who's talking about heaven???

Well, if you were talking about Hell it's a no brainer (70 sluts not virgins - no training required)!!

Talking about the here and now. Who has the patience to wait for something like that?!

Well, it depends how much faith you have in such a ridiculous idea - you could get a shotgun and blow yer brains out now.

Or, get a VR headset and join vrporn.com I'm pretty certain those girls arn't virgins - maybe apart from the lesbians (although not sure if dildos cancel virginity!!?)

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 2:26 am

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 2:16 am

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 2:14 am

Well, if you were talking about Hell it's a no brainer (70 sluts not virgins - no training required)!!

Talking about the here and now. Who has the patience to wait for something like that?!

Well, it depends how much faith you have in such a ridiculous idea - you could get a shotgun and blow yer brains out now.

Or, get a VR headset and join vrporn.com I'm pretty certain those girls arn't virgins - maybe apart from the lesbians (although not sure if dildos cancel virginity!!?)

I guess in the end, I really just want one girl in this world. And I haven't been able to get her yet. I don't know. Maybe there's hope. Just seems like a long time to wait and a lot of loneliness in between.

A soul is a hypothesized essence which humans, even animals, are said to possess.

No/flimsy evidence till date.

Agent Smith wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 3:22 am A soul is a hypothesized essence which humans, even animals, are said to possess.

No/flimsy evidence till date.

I mostly think of a soul as something that (allegedly) endures death. Perhaps it can be said that a soul is therefore "essential" of a person because it's a constant that endures all other qualities or components. However, if much of our thinking and mental activity is tied to the physical brain and the physical world, then is it really the case that the soul is the "essence" of a person? Maybe it's more like the bones of a skeleton? A skeleton is (at least in terms of this world) perhaps a mere shell or residue of what a person once was. But I guess that all depends on where one stakes one's hopes.

And is there a wrong answer to the question of where one stakes one's hopes? Do those who stake it on an afterlife miss out on this life? Or do those who put stake in this life win the bigger jackpot? Or, to resurrect criticisms of Pascal's Wager, is making one's decision based on trying to mathematically deduce the size of jackpots automatically an invitation to be condemned to special place in Hell (albeit, perhaps a relatively less agonizing one or something to that of serial murderers)?

I don't know. In the end the world sometimes seems like just a pissing contest, or perhaps a contest of some other kind. According to Christ the meek shall inherit the Earth and the least is the greatest. Of course, there's no proof one way or the other of any of that, however, it does leave one to find consolation in defeat or failure.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 2:01 am

Lacewing wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 6:04 pm No, you just say things like this...

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sun Feb 19, 2023 10:53 pm (according to my sage) atheists continue to be reborn into stupid, silly, shallow afterlives (they progress to be raised by atheists).

..and there you go above lacey, you just had to snip that from a conversation I was having with Dubious...

Oh, your sage didn't actually say that or you don't actually believe it? I repeated it to explain why I said what I said to you. It doesn't really matter to me why you said it if you believe it.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 2:01 am

Lacewing wrote: I think the concept of a soul tends to be yet another human idea/belief in individuality that lives on, and no I don't believe in that (personally). I know there are compelling cases for reincarnation but it seems to me that they might just as easily be explained by an interconnected, whole web of energy that we're all part of. In other words, we might all have access to memories of, or tap into being, an ancient temple priestess or some other 'past' figure... or anything else. We might all be part of everything.

When I refer to my 'soul' (e.g. "I feel it in my soul"), I'm talking about the depth or wholeness of my human self. When this body dies, I don't think there will be a use for all of the ideas that were associated with this world. Rather, it might be a different kind of awareness and creative potential not associated with a specific individual.

So at the outset you state you don't believe in a soul, and then go on to state your concept of reincarnation being an interconnected whole web of energy (something I agree with) and in you last statement you state that your soul when you state the word is the wholeness of your human self.

You first statement re no belief in a soul is contradicted by your latter statements.

No, you're not listening. I don't believe in an individual soul that 'lives on', as I said. The other statements fit with that.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 4:26 am
No, you're not listening. I don't believe in an individual soul that 'lives on', as I said. The other statements fit with that.

Why don't you believe in an individual soul that persists after death? Just saying, wouldn't agnosticism be a better stance in terms of where our knowledge of such things is at? I'm not saying that agnosticism may or may not win its adherent a great boon one way or the other, however, it seems more rational, if that's worth anything.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 4:33 am Why don't you believe in an individual soul that persists after death? Just saying, wouldn't agnosticism be a better stance in terms of where our knowledge of such things is at? I'm not saying that agnosticism may or may not win its adherent a great boon one way or the other, however, it seems more rational, if that's worth anything.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I see the value and logic of what you are suggesting -- and I don't know anything for sure. However, I simply don't believe in various ideas/beliefs if my own experiences have demonstrated something otherwise for me. It may be different for other people. I'm not sure that we're all meant to have the same experience/reality.

When I had a near death experience, I experienced what it felt like to no longer be an individual or a human. The sense was of something like being energy with awareness... waiting to see if the human beings saved the dying physical body. It truly didn't matter one way or the other. There were no desires, preferences, fears, needs, judgements, emotions, limits, separation, or ego... and none of the human ideas, models, or struggle. As a result of that experience, I have no reason to think I have a separate/individual soul or that there's a need/purpose for one.

Further... if we consider the fluctuating populations of beings (who supposedly have unique souls), how and why are more souls continually being created as civilizations grow, or being put on hold after entire ancient civilizations are wiped out? How does that work? Why wouldn't it make more sense that everything is part of, and an expression of, one creative ocean of energy (so to speak) that gives birth to countless temporary forms of awareness that rise and fall within the one?

Lacewing wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 7:05 am

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 4:33 am Why don't you believe in an individual soul that persists after death? Just saying, wouldn't agnosticism be a better stance in terms of where our knowledge of such things is at? I'm not saying that agnosticism may or may not win its adherent a great boon one way or the other, however, it seems more rational, if that's worth anything.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I see the value and logic of what you are suggesting -- and I don't know anything for sure. However, I simply don't believe in various ideas/beliefs if my own experiences have demonstrated something otherwise for me. It may be different for other people. I'm not sure that we're all meant to have the same experience/reality.

When I had a near death experience, I experienced what it felt like to no longer be an individual or a human. The sense was of something like being energy with awareness... waiting to see if the human beings saved the dying physical body. It truly didn't matter one way or the other. There were no desires, preferences, fears, needs, judgements, emotions, limits, separation, or ego... and none of the human ideas, models, or struggle. As a result of that experience, I have no reason to think I have a separate/individual soul or that there's a need/purpose for one.

Further... if we consider the fluctuating populations of beings (who supposedly have unique souls),

Hey, I can appreciate what you said above re NDE, but how do u think YOU are not unique...as a soul?

Lacewing wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 7:05 am..how and why are more souls continually being created as civilizations grow, or being put on hold after entire ancient civilizations are wiped out? How does that work? Why wouldn't it make more sense that everything is part of, and an expression of, one creative ocean of energy (so to speak) that gives birth to countless temporary forms of awareness that rise and fall within the one?

Well, exactly...but the "one" is unique...it is unique to every 'one'...it is your POV within this energy of the universe...it is YOU.

..so re 'wiped out civilisations' ...can you consider that you traverse time, that you incarnate within being reborn?

Consider todays population, there is biblical shit I could talk about but will not re being dead and raised from the grave...bla bla - but I don't buy bull as u know...

You DO believe you have an essence...a "soul" Lacewing - clearly you just don't like any association to mainstream current religious context ascribed to your contemplation. .... ... ... ?

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 4:04 am

Agent Smith wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 3:22 am A soul is a hypothesized essence which humans, even animals, are said to possess.

No/flimsy evidence till date.

I mostly think of a soul as something that (allegedly) endures death. Perhaps it can be said that a soul is therefore "essential" of a person because it's a constant that endures all other qualities or components. However, if much of our thinking and mental activity is tied to the physical brain and the physical world, then is it really the case that the soul is the "essence" of a person? Maybe it's more like the bones of a skeleton? A skeleton is (at least in terms of this world) perhaps a mere shell or residue of what a person once was. But I guess that all depends on where one stakes one's hopes.

And is there a wrong answer to the question of where one stakes one's hopes? Do those who stake it on an afterlife miss out on this life? Or do those who put stake in this life win the bigger jackpot? Or, to resurrect criticisms of Pascal's Wager, is making one's decision based on trying to mathematically deduce the size of jackpots automatically an invitation to be condemned to special place in Hell (albeit, perhaps a relatively less agonizing one or something to that of serial murderers)?

I don't know. In the end the world sometimes seems like just a pissing contest, or perhaps a contest of some other kind. According to Christ the meek shall inherit the Earth and the least is the greatest. Of course, there's no proof one way or the other of any of that, however, it does leave one to find consolation in defeat or failure.

From where to where, eh? For my money, I'd say no soul, but I'd be willing to hook you up with someone who could give you one and guessing, not knowing, how you are, it's free of charge!

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 8:35 am Hey, I can appreciate what you said above re NDE, but how do u think YOU are not unique...as a soul?

Because I experienced not feeling unique (during the NDE) beyond the human state/realm. Any uniqueness, it seems to me, has to do with my expression as a human while being a human. Sort of like a performer on a stage might perform various roles for a story... but it's just a story on that stage, nowhere else. Neither does the character exist beyond the stage.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 8:35 am

Lacewing wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 7:05 am..how and why are more souls continually being created as civilizations grow, or being put on hold after entire ancient civilizations are wiped out? How does that work? Why wouldn't it make more sense that everything is part of, and an expression of, one creative ocean of energy (so to speak) that gives birth to countless temporary forms of awareness that rise and fall within the one?

Well, exactly...but the "one" is unique...it is unique to every 'one'...it is your POV within this energy of the universe...it is YOU.

To assign uniqueness, it must be in relation to something else -- you have to suppose there are multiple separate 'ones', right? I'm not supposing that. I think separateness is an illusion. That doesn't mean we can't enjoy it while we're pretending.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 8:35 am..so re 'wiped out civilisations' ...can you consider that you traverse time, that you incarnate within being reborn?

Yes. I can also consider that the idea of linear time might be an illusion. Perhaps we are manifesting across the collective network in many ways, all at once. Many of my dreams feel like I'm remembering the future, and like I've really lived them... ever since I was a kid. I'm just not sure it matters which is dream and which is non-dream... I try to live both mindfully.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 8:35 am You DO believe you have an essence...a "soul" Lacewing - clearly you just don't like any association to mainstream current religious context ascribed to your contemplation. .... ... ... ?

Honestly... I don't feel I somehow own/possess any particular essence... rather, I am an expression of something greater than the small human in this physical form. Perhaps this manifestation can be many things. When the form dies, the 'essence' or energy that animated the form returns to the whole... for the next creation. That's my guess.

Have you experimented or experienced being without ego? That seems to change everything.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 7:05 am

When I had a near death experience, I experienced what it felt like to no longer be an individual or a human. The sense was of something like being energy with awareness... waiting to see if the human beings saved the dying physical body. It truly didn't matter one way or the other. There were no desires, preferences, fears, needs, judgements, emotions, limits, separation, or ego... and none of the human ideas, models, or struggle. As a result of that experience, I have no reason to think I have a separate/individual soul or that there's a need/purpose for one.

I've never had a NDE personally, but my mum did when she was involved in a nasty car crash in her 20's. She told me her experience had helped her let go of the fear of dying. She told me something happens to your brain in which the world just simply fades away, like it's all gone, except you are not gone, you seem to still exist, like be in some kind of sublime state of pure blissful content free awareness, where you feel like you have transcended the weight of the body and are now feeling the experience of being weightless, as if you were flying.
Not having had an NDE myself, I'll tell you what did happen to me one night as I was drifting off to sleep, I suddenly out of the blue, had this extraordinary experience of feeling as if I was transcending the entire weight of my body, where all I could feel was an amazing state of total weightlessness, where I was falling through what seemed like a bottomless void. I just remember it being very scary like I was no longer in control of myself, it was so intense and made me want to jolt out of the sensation, which I did. I've only ever experienced this once in my whole life, the experience has never repeated, and it's something I'll never forget.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 7:05 am Why wouldn't it make more sense that everything is part of, and an expression of, one creative ocean of energy (so to speak) that gives birth to countless temporary forms of awareness that rise and fall within the one?

I too agree with this analogy Lacewing.

Perhaps there is only ever one soul, and our impression of being an ''individual soul'' who is having a separate experience is like the impression a wave arising from the ocean has of itself. The ocean endlessly generates infinite numbers of waves, and each one believes for the brief duration of it's appearance that itself, and all the other waves, are not connected.

Perhaps there is one ocean of consciousness, and it generates infinite numbers of points of attention. You are a point of attention in the ocean of consciousness. So am I. But really, behind our masks of separate individual identities and experiences, we are really one thing experiencing ourself under the temporary arrangement of taking on a specific role wearing different masks, some of which are more denser and heavier than others. But some masks are more transparent in the sense they can see more clearly the illusion of separateness.