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What is your reason for imitating Christ?Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Oct 07, 2021 6:48 pmWell, funny people have funny ideas. T of A was right on a few things, and wrong on very many, judging by Scripture.
Well, I would suggest that "imitation" is a bit of a poor metaphor for what's going on. It seems to imply that the "imitator" is just sort of "trying hard" to behave like he or she thinks Christ would, and of course, is falling considerably short on that. It sounds like some kind of mere mimicry, or worse, a call to summon your resources so as to pretend to be Somebody who is far better than you could ever be.Belinda wrote: ↑Fri Oct 08, 2021 9:19 amWhat is your reason for imitating Christ?Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Oct 07, 2021 6:48 pmWell, funny people have funny ideas. T of A was right on a few things, and wrong on very many, judging by Scripture.
Imitation is the best anybody can do when perfection is aimed at.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Oct 08, 2021 2:51 pmWell, I would suggest that "imitation" is a bit of a poor metaphor for what's going on. It seems to imply that the "imitator" is just sort of "trying hard" to behave like he or she thinks Christ would, and of course, is falling considerably short on that. It sounds like some kind of mere mimicry, or worse, a call to summon your resources so as to pretend to be Somebody who is far better than you could ever be.Belinda wrote: ↑Fri Oct 08, 2021 9:19 amWhat is your reason for imitating Christ?Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Oct 07, 2021 6:48 pm
Well, funny people have funny ideas. T of A was right on a few things, and wrong on very many, judging by Scripture.
"Try harder" is not the motif of Scripture. It's rather, "Realize the futility of your mere human trying, and appeal to God for relief from what you are; and when He rescues you, you can be better than you would otherwise be."
That's quite a different proposition. The motif is "salvation," not "try harder."
"Try harder" is like yelling at a drowning man to "swim harder."
Humanly speaking, yes it is. And it's a failure every time.Belinda wrote: ↑Fri Oct 08, 2021 5:56 pmImitation is the best anybody can do when perfection is aimed at.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Oct 08, 2021 2:51 pmWell, I would suggest that "imitation" is a bit of a poor metaphor for what's going on. It seems to imply that the "imitator" is just sort of "trying hard" to behave like he or she thinks Christ would, and of course, is falling considerably short on that. It sounds like some kind of mere mimicry, or worse, a call to summon your resources so as to pretend to be Somebody who is far better than you could ever be.
"Try harder" is not the motif of Scripture. It's rather, "Realize the futility of your mere human trying, and appeal to God for relief from what you are; and when He rescues you, you can be better than you would otherwise be."
That's quite a different proposition. The motif is "salvation," not "try harder."
"Try harder" is like yelling at a drowning man to "swim harder."
It's the opposite, B. It's the teaching that no matter how hard you try, or how many good works you do, it's never good enough to put you into rightful harmony with a perfect and holy God. Or, as a wise woman recently put it to me, "imitation is the best anybody can do when perfection is aimed at." "Imitation" is not good enough.Regarding the Doctrine of Salvation, it is not simply and solely a teaching that you only have to do good works, or proper rituals in order to go to Heaven.
"Abysmally horrible"? That seems a bit hyperbolical, doesn't it? Let's just say what the Bible says: marred by "sin."More importantly it's teaching that humanity is so abysmally horrible that Christ is a personification of the good that some men do and are, which saves us as a species from complete degradation.
Then you'll never know.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Oct 08, 2021 3:17 amLet's see if that turns out to be true.
Or we both will.RCSaunders wrote: ↑Fri Oct 08, 2021 8:27 pmThen you'll never know.
The dead know nothing. There is no more reason to imagine anything like consciousness or knowledge after one dies than there is for believing in witches and zombies.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Oct 08, 2021 8:32 pmOr we both will.
We'll see.RCSaunders wrote: ↑Sat Oct 09, 2021 1:27 amThe dead know nothing.
But there are a lot of lights in the prevalent darkness.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Oct 08, 2021 6:32 pmHumanly speaking, yes it is. And it's a failure every time.Belinda wrote: ↑Fri Oct 08, 2021 5:56 pmImitation is the best anybody can do when perfection is aimed at.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Oct 08, 2021 2:51 pm
Well, I would suggest that "imitation" is a bit of a poor metaphor for what's going on. It seems to imply that the "imitator" is just sort of "trying hard" to behave like he or she thinks Christ would, and of course, is falling considerably short on that. It sounds like some kind of mere mimicry, or worse, a call to summon your resources so as to pretend to be Somebody who is far better than you could ever be.
"Try harder" is not the motif of Scripture. It's rather, "Realize the futility of your mere human trying, and appeal to God for relief from what you are; and when He rescues you, you can be better than you would otherwise be."
That's quite a different proposition. The motif is "salvation," not "try harder."
"Try harder" is like yelling at a drowning man to "swim harder."
It's the opposite, B. It's the teaching that no matter how hard you try, or how many good works you do, it's never good enough to put you into rightful harmony with a perfect and holy God. Or, as a wise woman recently put it to me, "imitation is the best anybody can do when perfection is aimed at." "Imitation" is not good enough.Regarding the Doctrine of Salvation, it is not simply and solely a teaching that you only have to do good works, or proper rituals in order to go to Heaven.
"Abysmally horrible"? That seems a bit hyperbolical, doesn't it? Let's just say what the Bible says: marred by "sin."More importantly it's teaching that humanity is so abysmally horrible that Christ is a personification of the good that some men do and are, which saves us as a species from complete degradation.
Man's not a devil, but nowhere near an angel either. He's a creature whose basic purpose is to have fellowship with a perfect God, but who, by way of sin, is not anywhere near where he/she needs to be. We're in a bad state, it's true: but we were created, as Genesis says, "in the image of God."
But "the good that some men do?" Well, the Bible talks about that, in Romans 3, and quoting the Torah, the OT directly, it says,
“There is no righteous person, not even one;
There is no one who understands,
There is no one who seeks out God;
They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt;
There is no one who does good,
There is not even one.”
“Their throat is an open grave,
With their tongues they keep deceiving,”
“The venom of asps is under their lips”;
“Their mouth is full of cursing and bitterness”;
“Their feet are swift to shed blood,
Destruction and misery are in their paths,
And they have not known the way of peace.”
“There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
That would seem to summarize the prospects that "the good that some men do" are going to get us out of anything. And again, in Ephesians, the Bible says, "For by grace you are saved, through faith; and that, not of yourselves. It is the gift of God, not of works..." That, too, would seem to slam the door on any thought that our deeds, or those of other mere humans, are going to bring our "imitations" up to the point where we become fit for company with God.
What the Bible says about that is that if it's ever going to happen, He's going to have to do it. Nobody else even has the potential.
My daily newspaper often reports a light in the darkness. Ordinary people I know and have known shone a light into the darkness. Some people in past times are known to have been lights in the darkness. Specifically, people who have been kind, promoted peace and understanding, and have acted mercifully from pity and sympathy.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Oct 09, 2021 2:52 pmWhat do you mean? I get the metaphor, I just don't know what you're thinking it applies to, in specific.
This is rhetoric without substance. I have no idea what you're talking about.Belinda wrote: ↑Sat Oct 09, 2021 7:38 pmMy daily newspaper often reports a light in the darkness. Ordinary people I know and have known shone a light into the darkness. Some people in past times are known to have been lights in the darkness. Specifically, people who have been kind, promoted peace and understanding, and have acted mercifully from pity and sympathy.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Oct 09, 2021 2:52 pmWhat do you mean? I get the metaphor, I just don't know what you're thinking it applies to, in specific.
Since when is what you believe based on what you see. I know there is only what can be seen, or rationally deduced from that evidence. If you believed that, you would know there is nothing once the conscious organism ceases to function, because you will no longer see.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Oct 09, 2021 1:37 amWe'll see.
Not merit to me or any individual, but merit to humankind. If humankind includes those who do something good , which is does, then humankind is not entirely lost to evil.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Oct 09, 2021 7:55 pmThis is rhetoric without substance. I have no idea what you're talking about.Belinda wrote: ↑Sat Oct 09, 2021 7:38 pmMy daily newspaper often reports a light in the darkness. Ordinary people I know and have known shone a light into the darkness. Some people in past times are known to have been lights in the darkness. Specifically, people who have been kind, promoted peace and understanding, and have acted mercifully from pity and sympathy.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Oct 09, 2021 2:52 pm
What do you mean? I get the metaphor, I just don't know what you're thinking it applies to, in specific.
Can you be honestly thinking that if somebody does something nice, that somehow transfers merit to you? That seems obviously wrong. I don't get your intended argument here, at all.
It depends. How bad is evil, and how does it relate to the good things we do?Belinda wrote: ↑Sun Oct 10, 2021 12:40 amNot merit to me or any individual, but merit to humankind. If humankind includes those who do something good , which is does, then humankind is not entirely lost to evil.Can you be honestly thinking that if somebody does something nice, that somehow transfers merit to you? That seems obviously wrong. I don't get your intended argument here, at all.
