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We don't know how electromagnetic fields are generated by charge and current but we know that there is a relation/function that dictates what the strength of electromagnetic fields should be given a specific amount of charge and current, so-called laws of nature. We simply don't know what the charge is.Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Fri Apr 15, 2022 7:59 am Sounds like you believe in strong emergence to me then.
Yes, minds in the brain are wired.MagsJ wrote: ↑Fri Apr 15, 2022 10:10 amTell that to the synesthetic, whom see greens and oranges in their greens and all manner of purples in their yellows, and thoughts and feelings in their minds-eye as cinematographic fact, ergo.. it’s all in one’s wiring.bahman wrote: ↑Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:12 pm I am talking about the matter here that can be experienced by mind. The matter has specific properties. I am saying that emergence is impossible. You could however have hidden properties that get magnified and become evident when the matter has specific form, like the taste of salt. The reality is that all the properties of matter are intertwined too.
Matter is nothing more than mind and qualia. So yes, a glass of milk generates qualia too otherwise it could not interact with our minds indirectly.Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Fri Apr 15, 2022 2:17 pmThat sounds like strong emergence. Unless all matter does this, and then just mentioning brains seems odd. Does a glass of milk generate qualia? for itself?
Matter is nothing more than mind and qualia. So, then, there is only mind and qualia. What is the mind that exists that is not qualia? Do you experience this mind?
Mind is an irreducible substance with the ability to experience qualia, freely decide, and cause qualia. Quale is another substance, subject of experience and causation.Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Tue Apr 19, 2022 11:43 amMatter is nothing more than mind and qualia. So, then, there is only mind and qualia. What is the mind that exists that is not qualia?
I cannot experience the mind directly but indirectly through the qualia that the mind produces.
It is the mind within milk that generate qualia.Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Tue Apr 19, 2022 11:43 am A glass of milk generates qualia and this allow 'it' to interact with out minds indirectly. But there is only mind and qualia. What what is this milk that generates qualia?
Anything which is subject to change is contingent. You cannot have a contingent thing causing another one since this leads to a regress. Therefore, you need a noncontingent thing so-called mind.
It all sounds fairly panpsychist, which is fine with me.bahman wrote: ↑Tue Apr 19, 2022 4:41 pmMind is an irreducible substance with the ability to experience qualia, freely decide, and cause qualia. Quale is another substance, subject of experience and causation.Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Tue Apr 19, 2022 11:43 amMatter is nothing more than mind and qualia. So, then, there is only mind and qualia. What is the mind that exists that is not qualia?
I cannot experience the mind directly but indirectly through the qualia that the mind produces.
It is the mind within milk that generate qualia.Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Tue Apr 19, 2022 11:43 am A glass of milk generates qualia and this allow 'it' to interact with out minds indirectly. But there is only mind and qualia. What what is this milk that generates qualia?
Anything which is subject to change is contingent. You cannot have a contingent thing causing another one since this leads to a regress. Therefore, you need a noncontingent thing so-called mind.
There are two substances, mind and qualia so, so we are dealing with substance dualism in which mind is primary and quale is secondary.Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Wed Apr 20, 2022 10:03 amIt all sounds fairly panpsychist, which is fine with me.bahman wrote: ↑Tue Apr 19, 2022 4:41 pmMind is an irreducible substance with the ability to experience qualia, freely decide, and cause qualia. Quale is another substance, subject of experience and causation.Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Tue Apr 19, 2022 11:43 am
Matter is nothing more than mind and qualia. So, then, there is only mind and qualia. What is the mind that exists that is not qualia?
I cannot experience the mind directly but indirectly through the qualia that the mind produces.
It is the mind within milk that generate qualia.Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Tue Apr 19, 2022 11:43 am A glass of milk generates qualia and this allow 'it' to interact with out minds indirectly. But there is only mind and qualia. What what is this milk that generates qualia?
Anything which is subject to change is contingent. You cannot have a contingent thing causing another one since this leads to a regress. Therefore, you need a noncontingent thing so-called mind.
Can you imagine them being nondual? I.e., you have mind, which is subject, and quale, which is object, yet, subject is formless and object is form. What if quale were perturbations of mind. Sounds like there is potential there for nondual rather than dual substance.bahman wrote: ↑Wed Apr 20, 2022 4:52 pmThere are two substances, mind and qualia so, so we are dealing with substance dualism in which mind is primary and quale is secondary.Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Wed Apr 20, 2022 10:03 amIt all sounds fairly panpsychist, which is fine with me.bahman wrote: ↑Tue Apr 19, 2022 4:41 pm
Mind is an irreducible substance with the ability to experience qualia, freely decide, and cause qualia. Quale is another substance, subject of experience and causation.
I cannot experience the mind directly but indirectly through the qualia that the mind produces.
It is the mind within milk that generate qualia.
Anything which is subject to change is contingent. You cannot have a contingent thing causing another one since this leads to a regress. Therefore, you need a noncontingent thing so-called mind.
I cannot follow you here. What do you mean that the mind is subject and quale is object?Dimebag wrote: ↑Thu Apr 21, 2022 11:48 amCan you imagine them being nondual? I.e., you have mind, which is subject, and quale, which is object, yet, subject is formless and object is form.bahman wrote: ↑Wed Apr 20, 2022 4:52 pmThere are two substances, mind and qualia so, so we are dealing with substance dualism in which mind is primary and quale is secondary.Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Wed Apr 20, 2022 10:03 am
It all sounds fairly panpsychist, which is fine with me.
What do you mean with quale is perturbation of mind?Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Wed Apr 20, 2022 10:03 am What if quale were perturbations of mind. Sounds like there is potential there for nondual rather than dual substance.
From what I can gather, mind is the substance in which qualia are present. A kind of substrate. So, as with other substrates, the contents of them, in this case, qualia, is made up of that substrate.bahman wrote: ↑Thu Apr 21, 2022 6:24 pmI cannot follow you here. What do you mean that the mind is subject and quale is object?
What do you mean with quale is perturbation of mind?Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Wed Apr 20, 2022 10:03 am What if quale were perturbations of mind. Sounds like there is potential there for nondual rather than dual substance.
I cannot follow you here. Do you mind to elaborate?Dimebag wrote: ↑Fri Apr 22, 2022 11:25 amFrom what I can gather, mind is the substance in which qualia are present. A kind of substrate. So, as with other substrates, the contents of them, in this case, qualia, is made up of that substrate.bahman wrote: ↑Thu Apr 21, 2022 6:24 pmI cannot follow you here. What do you mean that the mind is subject and quale is object?
What do you mean with quale is perturbation of mind?Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Wed Apr 20, 2022 10:03 am What if quale were perturbations of mind. Sounds like there is potential there for nondual rather than dual substance.
No, bahman, what you showed is that you don't seem to understand what "strong emergence" means.
seeds wrote: ↑Thu Apr 07, 2022 4:54 pmWhen something that we call "mind"...
(which is not only immaterial and un-measurable, but also contains a conscious [self-aware] agent who is in possession of free will)
...emerges from a measurable material substance in which no mind or self-aware (conscious) agent can be located, then, yes, we are indeed dealing with "strong emergence."
I suggest that the creation of each (one-of-a-kind) human consciousness with its own centralized and self-aware agent (or "I Am-ness") is, indeed, achieved through the unique arrangement of brain matter.
I think you are misunderstanding the meaning of the word "qualia," for qualia and mind are far too closely related to be thought of as being a proper representation of "substance dualism"...
In other words, you seem to be treating the word "qualia" as if it were a representation of "phenomena," or the actual phenomenal features of the universe (e.g., rocks, apples, French Horns, etc,), which it is not.qualia
noun
PHILOSOPHY
the internal and subjective component of sense perceptions, arising from stimulation of the senses by phenomena.
Again, "qualia" and "mind" are too closely related to be considered as being a good representation of "substance dualism."Examples of qualia include the perceived sensation of pain of a headache, the taste of wine, as well as the redness of an evening sky.
Clearly, it can be created, as is witnessed thousands of times everyday when a new mind awakens (emerges) into existence through this event...
The thread title should be "There is no strong emergence". I already defined weak emergence in this thread several times: A weak emergence describes a situation in a system in which the properties of the system/whole are functions of the properties of parts. The strong emergence is the opposite: A strong emergence describes a situation in a system in which the properties of the system/whole are not functions of the properties of parts.seeds wrote: ↑Fri Apr 22, 2022 8:26 pmNo, bahman, what you showed is that you don't seem to understand what "strong emergence" means.
That, and based on the fact that you just admitted that there are "...all sorts of emergence..." shows that you didn't give much critical thought to your thread title.
But I have shown in OP that all sorts of emergence are weak. Please help yourself and read and understand the argument. I would be happy to see your counter-argument.seeds wrote: ↑Thu Apr 07, 2022 4:54 pmWhen something that we call "mind"...
(which is not only immaterial and un-measurable, but also contains a conscious [self-aware] agent who is in possession of free will)
...emerges from a measurable material substance in which no mind or self-aware (conscious) agent can be located, then, yes, we are indeed dealing with "strong emergence."
If the unique arrangement of matter gives rise to something then we are dealing with weak emergence.
But something that can be caused/created can be destroyed too. Moreover, how something, the soul, that its very existence depends on something else, the brain, could survive death?seeds wrote: ↑Thu Apr 07, 2022 4:54 pm I speculatively propose that the brain accomplishes this miraculous feat through some "mechanistic" means that somehow allows it to summon-forth the essence of life imbued within the very fabric of its own material makeup and then somehow causes that life essence to "focalize and awaken" into a new entity (a "soul") that is capable of surviving the death of the body and brain.
Yes.
To me, the subject of experience, quale, is a substance created by minds. It should exist as a substance otherwise it could not be experienced given the definition of substance, substance is a thing that exists and has a set of properties. My definition is slightly different.seeds wrote: ↑Thu Apr 07, 2022 4:54 pmI think you are misunderstanding the meaning of the word "qualia," for qualia and mind are far too closely related to be thought of as being a proper representation of "substance dualism"...
In other words, you seem to be treating the word "qualia" as if it were a representation of "phenomena," or the actual phenomenal features of the universe (e.g., rocks, apples, French Horns, etc,), which it is not.qualia
noun
PHILOSOPHY
the internal and subjective component of sense perceptions, arising from stimulation of the senses by phenomena.
According to Wiki:
Examples of qualia include the perceived sensation of pain of a headache, the taste of wine, as well as the redness of an evening sky.
Again, "qualia" and "mind" are too closely related to be considered as being a good representation of "substance dualism."
I suggest you find something better than trying to contrast qualia with mind, for you are just adding unnecessary confusion to your argument.
That is not a proof.seeds wrote: ↑Thu Apr 07, 2022 4:54 pm
Clearly, it can be created, as is witnessed thousands of times everyday when a new mind awakens (emerges) into existence through this event...
The new mind (new "I Am-ness") that resides on the inside of that tiny skull is the ultimate example of "strong emergence."
Indeed, it is a representation of something that is "wholly other" than the material substance from which it emerged.
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bahman,bahman wrote: ↑Sat Mar 21, 2020 1:06 pm To show this consider a system with many parts each part has a set of properties. Now let’s assume that the system has a specific property. This property should not be reducible in terms of properties of parts if it is an emergent property. There must however be a reason that the system has this property rather than any other property. This means that there is a function that describes the property of the system. The only available variables are however the properties of parts. Therefore the property of the system must be a function of properties of parts. Therefore there is no emergence since the existence of the function implements that the property of the system is reducible to properties of parts.
I would add, in relation to the part I bolded and underlined,popeye1945 wrote: ↑Mon May 09, 2022 8:31 pmbahman,bahman wrote: ↑Sat Mar 21, 2020 1:06 pm To show this consider a system with many parts each part has a set of properties. Now let’s assume that the system has a specific property. This property should not be reducible in terms of properties of parts if it is an emergent property. There must however be a reason that the system has this property rather than any other property. This means that there is a function that describes the property of the system. The only available variables are however the properties of parts. Therefore the property of the system must be a function of properties of parts. Therefore there is no emergence since the existence of the function implements that the property of the system is reducible to properties of parts.
The system is not reducible to the properties of the individual parts, it is but the chemistry of the mix which gives rise to an emergent quality/substance.