Coronavirus Craziness

For philosophical reflections on the COVID-19 pandemic. How can philosophy help us to understand it, to combat it and to survive it?

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Arising_uk
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Re: Coronavirus Craziness

Post by Arising_uk »

Don't normally do this as I think it may break copyright but don't think you all will be able to access it so here's the article in full as I think it a very good one concerning a possible future.

The Economist leader this week.
Paying to stop the pandemic

The struggle to save lives and the economy is likely to present agonising choices

PLANET EARTH is shutting down. In the struggle to get a grip on covid-19, one country after another is demanding that its citizens shun society. As that sends economies reeling, desperate governments are trying to tide over companies and consumers by handing out trillions of dollars in aid and loan guarantees. Nobody can be sure how well these rescues will work.

But there is worse. Troubling new findings suggest that stopping the pandemic might require repeated shutdowns. And yet it is also now clear that such a strategy would condemn the world economy to grave—perhaps intolerable—harm. Some very hard choices lie ahead.
Barely 12 weeks after the first reports of people mysteriously falling ill in Wuhan, in central China, the world is beginning to grasp the pandemic’s true human and economic toll. As of March 18th SARS-CoV-2, the virus behind covid-19, had registered 134,000 infections outside China in 155 countries and territories. In just seven days that is an increase of almost 90,000 cases and 43 countries and territories. The real number of cases is thought to be at least an order of magnitude greater.
Spooked, governments are rushing to impose controls that would have been unimaginable only a few weeks ago. Scores of countries, including many in Africa and Latin America, have barred travellers from places where the virus is rife. Times Square is deserted, the City of London is dark and in France, Italy and Spain cafés, bars and restaurants have bolted their doors. Everywhere empty stadiums echo to absent crowds.
It has become clear that the economy is taking a much worse battering than analysts had expected (see Briefing). Data for January and February show that industrial output in China, which had been forecast to fall by 3% compared with a year earlier, was down by 13.5%. Retail sales were not 4% lower, but 20.5%. Fixed-asset investment, which measures the spending on such things as machinery and infrastructure, declined by 24%, six times more than predicted. That has sent economic forecasters the world over scurrying to revise down their predictions. Faced with the most brutal recession in living memory, governments are setting out rescue packages on a scale that exceeds even the financial crisis of 2007-09 (see leader).

This is the backdrop for fundamental choices about how to manage the disease. Using an epidemiological model, a group from Imperial College in London this week set out a framework to help policymakers think about what lies ahead. It is bleak.
One approach is mitigation, “flattening the curve” to make the pandemic less intense by, say, isolating cases and quarantining infected households. The other is to suppress it with a broader range of measures, including shutting in everybody, other than those who cannot work from home, and closing schools and universities. Mitigation curbs the pandemic, suppression aims to stop it in its tracks.
The modellers found that, were the virus left to spread, it would cause around 2.2m deaths in America and 500,000 in Britain by the end of summer. In advanced economies, they concluded, three months of curve-flattening, including two-week quarantines of infected households, would at best prevent only about half of these. Moreover, peak demand for intensive care would still be eight times the surge capacity of Britain’s National Health Service, leading to many more deaths that the model did not attempt to compute. If that pattern holds in other parts of Europe, even its best-resourced health systems, including Germany’s, would be overwhelmed.
No wonder governments are opting for the more stringent controls needed to suppress the pandemic. Suppression has the advantage that it has worked in China. On March 18th Italy added 4,207 new cases whereas Wuhan counted none at all. China has recorded a total of just over 80,000 cases in a population of 1.4bn people. For comparison, the Imperial group estimated that the virus left to itself would infect more than 80% of the population in Britain and America.

But that is why suppression has a sting in its tail. By keeping infection rates relatively low, it leaves many people susceptible to the virus. And since covid-19 is now so widespread, within countries and around the world, the Imperial model suggests that epidemics would return within a few weeks of the restrictions being lifted. To avoid this, countries must suppress the disease each time it resurfaces, spending at least half their time in lockdown. This on-off cycle must be repeated until either the disease has worked through the population or there is a vaccine which could be months away, if one works at all.
This is just a model, and models are just educated guesses based on the best evidence. Hence the importance of watching China to see if life there can return to normal without the disease breaking out again. The hope is that teams of epidemiologists can test on a massive scale so as to catch new cases early, trace their contacts and quarantine them without turning society upside down. Perhaps they will be helped by new drugs, such as a Japanese antiviral compound which China this week said was promising.
But this is just a hope, and hope is not a policy. The bitter truth is that mitigation costs too many lives and suppression may be economically unsustainable. After a few iterations governments might not have the capacity to carry businesses and consumers. Ordinary people might not tolerate the upheaval. The cost of repeated isolation, measured by mental well-being and the long-term health of the rest of the population, might not justify it.
In the real world there are trade-offs between the two strategies, though governments can make both more efficient. South Korea, China and Italy have shown that this starts with mass-testing. The more clearly you can identify who has the disease, the less you must depend upon indiscriminate restrictions. Tests for antibodies to the virus, picking up who has been infected and recovered, are needed to supplement today’s which are only valid just before and during the illness (see article). That will let immune people go about their business in the knowledge that they cannot be a source of further infections.

A second line of attack is to use technology to administer quarantines and social distancing. China is using apps to certify who is clear of the disease and who is not. Both it and South Korea are using big data and social media to trace infections, alert people to hotspots and round up contacts. South Korea changed the law to allow the state to gain access to medical records and share them without a warrant. In normal times many democracies might find that too intrusive. Times are not normal.
Last, governments should invest in health care, even if their efforts take months to bear fruit and may never be needed. They should increase the surge capacity of intensive care. Countries like Britain and America are desperately short of beds, specialists and ventilators. They should define the best treatment protocols, develop vaccines and test new therapeutic drugs. All this would make mitigation less lethal and suppression cheaper.
Be under no illusions. Such measures might still not prevent the pandemic from extracting a heavy toll. Today governments seem to be committed to suppression, whatever the cost. But if the disease is not conquered quickly, they will edge towards mitigation, even if that will result in many more deaths. Understandably, just now that is not a trade-off any government is willing to contemplate. They may soon have no choice.
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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Coronavirus Craziness

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It 'might' kill 2.2 million Americans. Since it mostly targets the elderly and those with weak immune systems then how many of those would have died anyway? Is no one capable of simple logic any more?
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Arising_uk
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Re: Coronavirus Craziness

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You seem to wilfully misunderstand? The people it kills are not those who are in imminent danger of dying, although those would probably die if they get pneumonia from the virus, but those who have underlying conditions that render them unable to fight the infection in the way they would have if they'd have been fully fit. For example, my twenty-nine year old son had sepsis last year and lost most kidney function and has to have dialysis three times a week. Now he can probably live for quite a few decades with this condition but if he gets this infection its very likely he will die. I don't know the figures but I guess there's pretty much a few million in every country in comparable situations, hence the figures.
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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Coronavirus Craziness

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Arising_uk wrote: Fri Mar 20, 2020 11:09 pm You seem to wilfully misunderstand? The people it kills are not those who are in imminent danger of dying, although those would probably die if they get pneumonia from the virus, but those who have underlying conditions that render them unable to fight the infection in the way they would have if they'd have been fully fit. For example, my twenty-nine year old son had sepsis last year and lost most kidney function and has to have dialysis three times a week. Now he can probably live for quite a few decades with this condition but if he gets this infection its very likely he will die. I don't know the figures but I guess there's pretty much a few million in every country in comparable situations, hence the figures.
And how many will die after everything implodes? There will be no dialysis for ANYONE. People can't even get panadol NOW. What will happen when no one can get ANY of their medications? People are stockpiling inhalers, so asthmatics can't get them or have to pay exhorbitant prices online. Your son could just as easily have died if he got the flu or a cold. THAT is the point. Say it and you get jumped on by the online virtue-signallers screaming that you 'don't care about the vulnerable'. Fuck I'm sick of morons.
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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Coronavirus Craziness

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

This is all so ridiculous that I'm beginning to wonder if it's a worldwide govt. conspiracy to combat global warming. Limiting air travel is certainly an obvious starting point. Could they be using the not particularly lethal corona disease as an excuse to finally do something about global warming before it kills us all? Seems a tad coincidental that this is all happening right after the Australian bushfires disaster.
Dubious
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Re: Coronavirus Craziness

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vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Sat Mar 21, 2020 12:32 am This is all so ridiculous that I'm beginning to wonder if it's a worldwide govt. conspiracy to combat global warming. Limiting air travel is certainly an obvious starting point. Could they be using the not particularly lethal corona disease as an excuse to finally do something about global warming before it kills us all? Seems a tad coincidental that this is all happening right after the Australian bushfires disaster.
That's an idea worth considering even if it may not be true. We're far too used to surrendering to economic and political pressures at the expense of just about everything else as proven over and over. So the question is what could make it true. What comes to mind is that the science of global warming and its consequences are now so overwhelming it can no-longer be refuted but also something the powers-that-be refuse to make fully aware realizing its ramifications for the public. Thus a camouflage is needed where governments can still maintain order while hoping to prevent a far greater ecological disaster and appearing benign in the process.

It' all just speculation but obviously governments do retain information under the rubric of national security. One thing is nearly certain. If global warming is allowed to progress and perhaps even escalate after surpassing a certain range, the horror will come from ALL sides including being our own worst enemy in the effort to survive. In the meantime, we're free to index the comparatively mild mortality rate of the corona virus by how much toilet paper we hoard. We'll know it's really serious when there's none for sale along with other essentials.
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Re: Coronavirus Craziness

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Arising_uk wrote: Fri Mar 20, 2020 10:40 pm The modellers found that, were the virus left to spread, it would cause around 2.2m deaths in America and 500,000 in Britain by the end of summer. In advanced economies, they concluded, three months of curve-flattening, including two-week quarantines of infected households, would at best prevent only about half of these. Moreover, peak demand for intensive care would still be eight times the surge capacity of Britain’s National Health Service, leading to many more deaths that the model did not attempt to compute. If that pattern holds in other parts of Europe, even its best-resourced health systems, including Germany’s, would be overwhelmed.
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Fri Mar 20, 2020 11:00 pm It 'might' kill 2.2 million Americans. Since it mostly targets the elderly and those with weak immune systems then how many of those would have died anyway? Is no one capable of simple logic any more?
Check the part I bolded for you above. 2.2 million dead Americans, half a million dead Brits, and so on is a starting point.

40% of those hospitalised are under the age of 50, and most of them are not known to have any underlying medical condition. Your assumptions seem to be that this all represents some house cleaning opportunity to kill off the weak and elderly. I'm just going to skip over the ethical issues there and point out that if you get your way, you will replace many millions of old and infirm people with a new generation of relatively young people whose lungs have been shredded because they survived a terrible viral pneumonia but didn't have proper ventilation assistance. And then what? Wait for a new disease that can circle back and kill them off for you? Assuming you aren't one of them.
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Arising_uk
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Re: Coronavirus Craziness

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vegetariantaxidermy wrote: And how many will die after everything implodes? There will be no dialysis for ANYONE. People can't even get panadol NOW. What will happen when no one can get ANY of their medications? People are stockpiling inhalers, so asthmatics can't get them or have to pay exhorbitant prices online. Your son could just as easily have died if he got the flu or a cold. THAT is the point. Say it and you get jumped on by the online virtue-signallers screaming that you 'don't care about the vulnerable'. Fuck I'm sick of morons.
What are you arguing for, no attempt at mitigation or suppression? The models we have based upon China's and Italy's cases would have the UK with 500,000 deaths, and that's if we can even trust China's statistics(which I personally doubt) the health service would collapse and even more would die from that, so no not seasonal flu and definitely not a cold. As it stands our health advisors say it'll be a good result if we get 20,000 deaths when this is over. No government would be able to support the first and they are barely going to be able to cope with the second. As to why people can't get Panadol in certain countries, that'll be due to people stockpiling something that they don't really need out of fear because govts haven't taken the China route and imposed draconian measures fast enough as they were naïve enough to believe their populace would act sanely. It's definitely interesting how different countries' citizens have responded as we can get paracetamol over here but certain food stocks are scarce but in Italy where there is a medical meltdown their supermarkets are full, go figure. I personally agree with you about the hysteria but I seriously doubt our govt nor their medical advisors are 'online virtue-signallers' in any shape or form. The whole point of the measures being taken is to try and ensure that the health service doesn't crash and burn so that people with medical conditions that are not fatal can still receive treatment, whether they succeed is an open question. As to a nations economy, well if we go into a great depression I guess we'll just go onto a wartime footing and just nationalise the lot and impose rationing, et al, until it's over or we go the other way and just let it rampage through and use bulldozers to bury the dead. Again, I agree with much of your sentiment but personally think this the wake-up call that the virologists and epidemiologists have been warning about for decades now, lets hope we listen and prepare properly for such an event. As we can rebuild economies but if the next one comes with this one's infectiousness but the earlier ones mortality rate then we truly will be facing that third-world scenario you've spoken about.
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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Coronavirus Craziness

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Arising_uk wrote: Sat Mar 21, 2020 4:15 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: And how many will die after everything implodes? There will be no dialysis for ANYONE. People can't even get panadol NOW. What will happen when no one can get ANY of their medications? People are stockpiling inhalers, so asthmatics can't get them or have to pay exhorbitant prices online. Your son could just as easily have died if he got the flu or a cold. THAT is the point. Say it and you get jumped on by the online virtue-signallers screaming that you 'don't care about the vulnerable'. Fuck I'm sick of morons.
What are you arguing for, no attempt at mitigation or suppression? The models we have based upon China's and Italy's cases would have the UK with 500,000 deaths, and that's if we can even trust China's statistics(which I personally doubt) the health service would collapse and even more would die from that, so no not seasonal flu and definitely not a cold. As it stands our health advisors say it'll be a good result if we get 20,000 deaths when this is over. No government would be able to support the first and they are barely going to be able to cope with the second. As to why people can't get Panadol in certain countries, that'll be due to people stockpiling something that they don't really need out of fear because govts haven't taken the China route and imposed draconian measures fast enough as they were naïve enough to believe their populace would act sanely. It's definitely interesting how different countries' citizens have responded as we can get paracetamol over here but certain food stocks are scarce but in Italy where there is a medical meltdown their supermarkets are full, go figure. I personally agree with you about the hysteria but I seriously doubt our govt nor their medical advisors are 'online virtue-signallers' in any shape or form. The whole point of the measures being taken is to try and ensure that the health service doesn't crash and burn so that people with medical conditions that are not fatal can still receive treatment, whether they succeed is an open question. As to a nations economy, well if we go into a great depression I guess we'll just go onto a wartime footing and just nationalise the lot and impose rationing, et al, until it's over or we go the other way and just let it rampage through and use bulldozers to bury the dead. Again, I agree with much of your sentiment but personally think this the wake-up call that the virologists and epidemiologists have been warning about for decades now, lets hope we listen and prepare properly for such an event. As we can rebuild economies but if the next one comes with this one's infectiousness but the earlier ones mortality rate then we truly will be facing that third-world scenario you've spoken about.
To put it in perspective, half a million people die in England every year. 3 million people die in the US every year. Most people who get corona wouldn't even need hospitalising. A lot of people get no symptoms. I didn't say do nothing. Educating people about hygiene is doing something. Advising the vulnerable to avoid certain places is doing something. Working on a vaccine is doing something. Shutting down the whole planet for a very small percentage of people is way over the top.
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Re: Coronavirus Craziness

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vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Sat Mar 21, 2020 5:17 am To put it in perspective, half a million people die in England every year. 3 million people die in the US every year. Most people who get corona wouldn't even need hospitalising. A lot of people get no symptoms. I didn't say do nothing. Educating people about hygiene is doing something. Advising the vulnerable to avoid certain places is doing something. Working on a vaccine is doing something. Shutting down the whole planet for a very small percentage of people is way over the top.
Dr. Anthony Fauci, the Director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, is the go-to expert spokesman in the United States.

Your specific concerns were asked of him in a recent press conference, a few hours ago.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoUCDJ6PxUE

His answer at 1:09 puts your concerns into a moral perspective:

“When you have something that is new, and it’s emerging, and you really can’t predict totally the impact it’s going to have, and you take a look at what’s going on in China, and you see what’s going on right now, right now in Italy, and what’s happening in NYC, I don’t think with any moral conscience you can say, ‘Why don’t we just let it rip, and happen, and let X percent of the people die.’ I don’t understand that reasoning at all.”

- Anthony Fauci


*

Economic concerns could soon override moral concerns, plunging the good doctor into a world he doesn't now understand at all.
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Re: Coronavirus Craziness

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Walker wrote: Sat Mar 21, 2020 6:11 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Sat Mar 21, 2020 5:17 am To put it in perspective, half a million people die in England every year. 3 million people die in the US every year. Most people who get corona wouldn't even need hospitalising. A lot of people get no symptoms. I didn't say do nothing. Educating people about hygiene is doing something. Advising the vulnerable to avoid certain places is doing something. Working on a vaccine is doing something. Shutting down the whole planet for a very small percentage of people is way over the top.
Dr. Anthony Fauci, the Director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, is the go-to expert spokesman in the United States.

Your specific concerns were asked of him in a recent press conference, a few hours ago.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoUCDJ6PxUE

His answer at 1:09 puts your concerns into a moral perspective:

“When you have something that is new, and it’s emerging, and you really can’t predict totally the impact it’s going to have, and you take a look at what’s going on in China, and you see what’s going on right now, right now in Italy, and what’s happening in NYC, I don’t think with any moral conscience you can say, ‘Why don’t we just let it rip, and happen, and let X percent of the people die.’ I don’t understand that reasoning at all.”

- Anthony Fauci


*

Economic concerns could soon override moral concerns, plunging the good doctor into a world he doesn't now understand at all.
We don't have enough statistical information on who exactly is dying. Are they heavy smokers? People in their 80s and 90s? Where's the 'morality' in shutting down schools, kindergartens, playcentres etc, forcing children to be recluses so they don't 'infect vulnerable people'?? Children are not responsible for the elderly. Children are not responsible for smokers. Where's the 'morality' in causing people to lose their jobs, livelihoods and homes? Where's the 'morality' in people not being able to get inhalers, medications that they depend on?
Walker
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Re: Coronavirus Craziness

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Check the information coming out of Italy.

Medical people there are warning other countries to immediately seal their borders.
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Re: Coronavirus Craziness

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Take care everyone, this is very serious.
Walker
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Re: Coronavirus Craziness

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China has been busy taking over the Italian fashion industry.

Big Chinese presence in northern Italy with lots of direct flights between the two countries.
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Re: Coronavirus Craziness

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vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Sat Mar 21, 2020 7:14 am We don't have enough statistical information on who exactly is dying. Are they heavy smokers? People in their 80s and 90s? Where's the 'morality' in shutting down schools, kindergartens, playcentres etc, forcing children to be recluses so they don't 'infect vulnerable people'?? Children are not responsible for the elderly. Children are not responsible for smokers. Where's the 'morality' in causing people to lose their jobs, livelihoods and homes? Where's the 'morality' in people not being able to get inhalers, medications that they depend on?
Here's a somewhat critical analysis of Fauci.

Anthony Fauci, the NIH’s face of the coronavirus, is a deep-state Hillary Clinton-loving stooge
https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/20 ... tooge.html
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