Philosophy Now Forum

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2019 12:53 pm

attofishpi wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:37 am So why do you think God does not need a cause?

Well, what is not a matter of opinion, not a mere "I think," is this: in any credible or scientific explanation of the existence of the universe, we need to include a First Cause of some kind. This is not because any particular belief or "I think" says so, but by the mathematical certitude that a chain of causes cannot commence if we try to imagine it as having been eternal in the past. It had to start at some definite chronological point -- point zero, if you will, in the timeline. That being so, whatever began the causal chain had to itself be eternal.

So far, we have only said that much. And we can know more, but we have to establish the certainty of that first.

Mate, all you are doing is chasing your own tail/tale.

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attofishpi wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2019 1:07 pm
Mate, all you are doing is chasing your own tail/tale.

Tails are there to be chased. No tail, no tailer.

No tale, no you.

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surreptitious57 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:58 pmAll hypotheses have to be tested to see if they are actually true because sometimes they are false.

Metaphysics is the science of supernatural consciousness.

It's the only real science, all other sciences are pseudo sciences within real science.

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Belinda wrote: ↑Tue Apr 23, 2019 5:52 pm with the reservation that some atheists believe that existence , the Cosmos, nature or what have you is chaotic.

The only order in the universe is just a cycle of calm and chaos.

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attofishpi wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2019 1:07 pm Mate, all you are doing is chasing your own tail/tale.

entropy leads to chaos, intelligence forms from chaos, intelligence forms reality/man, entropy leads to chaos,intelligence forms from chaos, intelligence forms reality/man, entropy leads to chaos,intelligence forms from chaos, intelligence forms reality/man, entropy leads to chaos,intelligence forms from chaos, intelligence forms reality/man, entropy leads to chaos,intelligence forms from chaos, intelligence forms reality/man, entropy leads to chaos,intelligence forms from chaos, intelligence forms reality/man, entropy leads to chaos,intelligence forms from chaos, intelligence forms reality/man, entropy leads to chaos,intelligence forms from chaos, intelligence forms reality/man, entropy leads to chaos,intelligence forms from chaos, intelligence forms reality/man, entropy leads to chaos,intelligence forms from chaos, intelligence forms reality/man, entropy leads to chaos,intelligence forms from chaos, intelligence forms reality/man, entropy leads to chaos,intelligence forms from chaos, intelligence forms reality/man, entropy leads to chaos,intelligence forms from chaos, intelligence forms reality/man, entropy leads to chaos,intelligence forms from chaos, intelligence forms reality/man, entropy leads to chaos,intelligence forms from chaos, intelligence forms reality/man, entropy leads to chaos,intelligence forms from chaos, intelligence forms reality/man, entropy leads to chaos,intelligence forms from chaos, intelligence forms reality/man, entropy leads to chaos,intelligence forms from chaos, intelligence forms reality/man, entropy leads to chaos.....etc...

Well, this is clearly obfuscation, not reasoning. When reason comes back on line, we have again the necessity of a First Cause. We can leave its nature (temporarily) unspecified, if thinking beyond that offends us; but we cannot escape the logic.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2019 1:29 pm

surreptitious57 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:58 pmAll hypotheses have to be tested to see if they are actually true because sometimes they are false.

Metaphysics is the science of supernatural consciousness.

It's the only real science, all other sciences are pseudo sciences within real science.

Pseudo sciences are biased in corporate interests. The supernatural science of consciousness is not because it's only interest is truth. And you cannot handle the truth that is why you invent lies.

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Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2019 1:51 am

Logik wrote: ↑Tue Apr 23, 2019 6:20 pm The same thing happens when you make the claim that "God is an uncaused cause". The universe is a caused cause.

The universe is indeed a caused cause. But that's why it cannot be the answer to its own origin. It requires a cause.

Deflection.

Both God and Universe are causes.

The distinction between caused and uncaused causes is entirely yours. And unsubstantiated.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2019 1:34 pm

attofishpi wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2019 1:07 pm Mate, all you are doing is chasing your own tail/tale.

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Well, this is clearly obfuscation, not reasoning. When reason comes back on line, we have again the necessity of a First Cause. We can leave its nature (temporarily) unspecified, if thinking beyond that offends us; but we cannot escape the logic.

That's the problem with MAN. We cannot understand there is NO first cause. Causality requires a state of conditions where logic exists.

Logik wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:15 pm Both God and Universe are causes.
The distinction between caused and uncaused causes is entirely yours. And unsubstantiated.

It's logically inescapable, actually. But I see we're just disagreeing about that.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:26 pm That's the problem with MAN. We cannot understand there is NO first cause. Causality requires a state of conditions where logic exists.

Well, if that's so, how do you know there is a "problem"? You say there is no recourse to logic in this question: but if so, you could not even discover the question needed to be asked.

Lewis said that a person who uses reason to deny the efficacy of reason is like a person sitting on a branch, and sawing it off between herself and the tree -- if she succeeds, she fails.

Logik wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:15 pm
The distinction between caused and uncaused causes is entirely yours.

Same difference.

Logik wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:15 pmAnd unsubstantiated.

Obviously.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2019 3:28 pm

attofishpi wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:26 pm That's the problem with MAN. We cannot understand there is NO first cause. Causality requires a state of conditions where logic exists.

Well, if that's so, how do you know there is a "problem"? You say there is no recourse to logic in this question: but if so, you could not even discover the question needed to be asked.

Lewis said that a person who uses reason to deny the efficacy of reason is like a person sitting on a branch, and sawing it off between herself and the tree -- if she succeeds, she fails.

...and it was attofishpi that said, so knowledgeable, but so short sighted, that with what remained, had little to apply intelligence to.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:26 pm
That's the problem with MAN. We cannot understand there is NO first cause. Causality requires a state of conditions where logic exists.

That's the problem with MAN he doesn't understand there is no MAN here. Where is the dividing line between an animal and a man?

When did a man become a man, when was the first man born?

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Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2019 3:26 pm It's logically inescapable, actually. But I see we're just disagreeing about that.

According to which logic exactly? There are so many to choose from.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2019 3:26 pm

Logik wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:15 pm Both God and Universe are causes.
The distinction between caused and uncaused causes is entirely yours. And unsubstantiated.

It's logically inescapable, actually. But I see we're just disagreeing about that.

Well Mr Can, you haven't demonstrated that it is "logically inescapable" that there was a 'first cause. It is logically inescapable that -1+1=0, which is more or less Lawrence Krauss's argument. It is therefore conceivable that 0, an actual void, inevitably disintegrates into matter and antimatter, without any 'first cause'. The fact is, we simply don't know how the universe began, and it is nothing more than wishful thinking on your part that some lovely bloke had a role in 'creation'.