The universe expands ...

So what's really going on?

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attofishpi
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Re: The universe expands ...

Post by attofishpi »

Godfree wrote:What is it you are asking us to consider ,??? ,,does alah exist ,,??? is that the question ,
does Brain Tamaki's god exist , , to say god , is not a specific ,
there are so many versions and concepts of god , you will have to be a little more precise than that ,
I am asking you to consider this. You and physicists (many of whom are theists) are grappling with an ever increasing complexity to describe the very nature of reality.
I am asking you to forget doctrine..when dealing with some theists here on the forum.
I am asking you to consider that this extremely complex reality has aspects that make God entirely plausible.
and finally to realise that all our perception is made up of analysis of pervading 'fields' that are in continual flux.
reasonvemotion
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Re: The universe expands ...

Post by reasonvemotion »

and to your comment..
acceptance/obedience without proof.. is the way of those so stupid they do not know they are stupid

Isn't that what I intimated?
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attofishpi
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Re: The universe expands ...

Post by attofishpi »

reasonvemotion wrote:
and to your comment..
acceptance/obedience without proof.. is the way of those so stupid they do not know they are stupid

Isn't that what I intimated?
Its is pure arrogance to call someone stupid in relation to their belief when there is no evidence to contradict said belief.
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Re: The universe expands ...

Post by SpheresOfBalance »

attofishpi wrote:
SpheresOfBalance wrote:
attofishpi wrote:I can state with certainty that you are uncertain of my claim. The only thing i have not yet found in relation to God or 'God' is its true nature.
True, you could be 1 in 7 billion, or maybe more if we consider history, but, this lends to my feeling sure enough, without you expounding on the reason you profess to 'know,' as you have only done so. Care to expound, or would that be risky, many eyes of scrutiny of intellect, may find error in judgment, tarnish your vision, though anyone can be pigheaded?
I believe there are likely to be at least thousands of people on this planet that KNOW God exists, I know sages walk amongst us with far more knowledge and understanding of what God IS than i may ever be fortunate enough to comprehend.

My 'test' began in 1997. It wasn't until November 13 2005 that a sage introduced himself from the ether.
I have already expounded on this forum in the past some experiences that provided reason that i could attest to knowing God exists. The problem is always that the proof i have was derived from ongoing analysis from inputs of my eyes - my ears - and even smells, you the reader will still be left with the predicament of having to believe 1. That i have actually witnessed such an event. 2. That i am of sound mind.
There will always be a very large element of anyone DOUBTing me. As you must know by now i like to extrapolate words, the word DOUBT, the opposite to FAITH even has my initials BT. DO-U-BT? Do i doubt in Gods existence...not anymore.
When you understand that God is all dimensions, that is, all reality then you can start looking at anomalies in the reality we are embedded within, anomalies that are so unlikely to have occurred through natural random events. It was by pointing out these anomalies within the English language and anomalies mapped upon the face of the planet that i attempted to 'teach' as per instruction from the sage.
To expound on my experiences of those 16yrs would require opening up on countless and very personal parts of my life, and you the reader are still going to be only left with the two aforementioned points of constraint...in essence, you will always have DOUBT..in me.
Yes I understand everything you just said. I cannot travel back in time and see through your eyes in that very instance they were opened, and even if I could, me being me, I may not do math the same as you, such that I would see this evidence as you have seen. But make no mistake, I have seen these things too, like I'm sure everyone has, For instance I just heard one in the distance, as I typed the phrase above in red, coincidence, or a sign from the creator? The difference between you and I is that I understand that there is such a thing as coincidence and that we all are capable of finding rabbits, dogs, and creators in the clouds as we lie on our backs trying to do so, because of any certain amount of predisposition, as manifest due to our experience, from the moments we open our eyes as a infant through childhood, and on through adulthood. That the mind is able to see anything that it wants to see, and that insanity is merely how we interact with others and our selves, as a result of what we think we see.

I say here and now that in the truest understanding of knowing, you only 'believe' you 'know,' that you cannot in fact 'know,' but that, that fact is good enough for you, in order to claim you 'know.' Fine, you are free to lead your life as you see fit, it is in fact only yours to command. And that you do not have to answer to anyone other than whom you choose, that being a god or otherwise. And that you are right, you could never convince me otherwise, as I see with my faculties alone, and I've never really been a gambler, as with 'knowledge.' Or at least I try and keep it to a minimum.

I shall not waste my life anywhere other than on this fence, as it is in fact a very tall one, as I view and expand on, the potential of either of the two vistas. I would rather be certain about being uncertain, as I gaze at the beauty of life, existence, and the universe, as the truth shall eventually unfold, to what ever degree that it does, before I die, than to be certain of either choice, and it being the incorrect one; to bet on a losing horse named regret. "If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice." Which doesn't mean one can't see either choice from their perch, as a matter of fact, from my perspective, I can see that neither purposeful creation nor evolution necessarily disagree with one another. But that the words, as written by some men, can be entirely different.

As we have just referenced, as to your and my beliefs, there is no necessary accounting for the words of men.
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Re: The universe expands ...

Post by reasonvemotion »

atofishpi wrote:
Its is pure arrogance to call someone stupid in relation to their belief when there is no evidence to contradict said belief.
attofishpi wrote:
Only with an atheist is a discussion about a soul\eternal life meaningless bullshit.

Arrogance personified!
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Re: The universe expands ...

Post by attofishpi »

SpheresOfBalance wrote:Yes I understand everything you just said. I cannot travel back in time and see through your eyes in that very instance they were opened, and even if I could, me being me, I may not do math the same as you, such that I would see this evidence as you have seen. But make no mistake, I have seen these things too, like I'm sure everyone has, For instance I just heard one in the distance, as I typed the phrase above in red, coincidence, or a sign from the creator? The difference between you and I is that I understand that there is such a thing as coincidence and that we all are capable of finding rabbits, dogs, and creators in the clouds as we lie on our backs trying to do so, because of any certain amount of predisposition, as manifest due to our experience, from the moments we open our eyes as a infant through childhood, and on through adulthood. That the mind is able to see anything that it wants to see, and that insanity is merely how we interact with others and our selves, as a result of what we think we see.

I say here and now that in the truest understanding of knowing, you only 'believe' you 'know,' that you cannot in fact 'know,' but that, that fact is good enough for you, in order to claim you 'know.' Fine, you are free to lead your life as you see fit, it is in fact only yours to command. And that you do not have to answer to anyone other than whom you choose, that being a god or otherwise. And that you are right, you could never convince me otherwise, as I see with my faculties alone, and I've never really been a gambler, as with 'knowledge.' Or at least I try and keep it to a minimum.

I shall not waste my life anywhere other than on this fence, as it is in fact a very tall one, as I view and expand on, the potential of either of the two vistas. I would rather be certain about being uncertain, as I gaze at the beauty of life, existence, and the universe, as the truth shall eventually unfold, to what ever degree that it does, before I die, than to be certain of either choice, and it being the incorrect one; to bet on a losing horse named regret. "If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice." Which doesn't mean one can't see either choice from their perch, as a matter of fact, from my perspective, I can see that neither purposeful creation nor evolution necessarily disagree with one another. But that the words, as written by some men, can be entirely different.

As we have just referenced, as to your and my beliefs, there is no necessary accounting for the words of men.
I appreciate the points you make, but im going to concentrate this little tad on the red bit...

I totally agree with you that experiencing a little, lets say, synchronicity should only be summed up as coincidence and nothing more...im not so stupid as to be running around claiming to know God exists based on a few or even many coincidences.

Why do you believe that as an individual, a person cannot know that there is a God?
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Re: The universe expands ...

Post by attofishpi »

reasonvemotion wrote:atofishpi wrote:
Its is pure arrogance to call someone stupid in relation to their belief when there is no evidence to contradict said belief.
attofishpi wrote:
Only with an atheist is a discussion about a soul\eternal life meaningless bullshit.

Arrogance personified!
I hardly think a heated response to an antagonising Chaz Wyman is due consideration for arrogance...but well done for scouring the forum for that little gem..
And while on that note...does anyone know of his whereabouts? I hope he is ok.
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Re: The universe expands ...

Post by reasonvemotion »

I hardly think a heated response to an antagonising Chaz Wyman is due consideration for arrogance...but well done for scouring the forum for that little gem..

No more "heated" than the response your were criticising here on this thread.

Scouring the Forum, not exactly.

I am interested in most people's retorts, and especially subjects I can relate to, then, I sometimes retain snippets in my head. In your case, perhaps it was because I am still at odds over your "beliefs" and your odd way of expressing them.

As for you, I think my interest has waned considerably.
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Re: The universe expands ...

Post by Godfree »

Arising_uk wrote:
Godfree wrote:...
How about a god that watches little children being abused and killed ,
a sick and disgusting type of god that would rather watch the poor wee mite suffer than stop it ,
do you think god is playing with his dick as the poor wee kids are beaten to death ,???
maybe he's laughing , and finds it funny ,
or maybe he's kinky and gets off on the suffering ,,???
Or maybe, as the theists say, its according to a plan that you, being not a 'god', cannot fathom? Or maybe its as they say, we've been given free-will and took the knowledge of right and wrong so its not 'gods'place to stop such stuff.

Is that what you'd like? A 'God' that steps in and solves all that ails us?

The problem of evil has long been discussed and pretty tight replies offered by the believer to the believer who begins to doubt due to such stuff.

As chaz wyman pointed out to me. All you are doing is affirming 'its' existence by such discussion.
The standard view of god is all knowing all powerful ,
so I think I make a very valid point , an all knowing god would indeed be aware of the abuse and suffering that went on , a god would have his own xxxxx channel of the most disgusting and horrible deeds known to man ,
so which do you think god would get the most turned on by , ??
all the killing and madness of war ,
or the more personal up close view of the children being tortured ,
I would say their all knowing god ,
would have to be the sickest and most insane of all ...
Godfree
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Re: The universe expands ...

Post by Godfree »

attofishpi wrote:
reasonvemotion wrote:atofishpi wrote:
Its is pure arrogance to call someone stupid in relation to their belief when there is no evidence to contradict said belief.
attofishpi wrote:
Only with an atheist is a discussion about a soul\eternal life meaningless bullshit.

Of sound mind ,,,??? according to who ,,??
if you were to use the American Atheists definition of sane ,
then you are not sane ,
I say the irrational belief in god is one of the main stumbling blocks in the way of the advance of civilization ,
so sane and belief in magical beings in the sky , don't fit in the same sentence ,
sane people don't believe in things that aren't real ,
they may entertain themselves with the theory for a bit of fun ,
but the moment you believe , you are no longer sane ,,.
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Re: The universe expands ...

Post by SpheresOfBalance »

attofishpi wrote:
SpheresOfBalance wrote:Yes I understand everything you just said. I cannot travel back in time and see through your eyes in that very instance they were opened, and even if I could, me being me, I may not do math the same as you, such that I would see this evidence as you have seen. But make no mistake, I have seen these things too, like I'm sure everyone has, For instance I just heard one in the distance, as I typed the phrase above in red, coincidence, or a sign from the creator? The difference between you and I is that I understand that there is such a thing as coincidence and that we all are capable of finding rabbits, dogs, and creators in the clouds as we lie on our backs trying to do so, because of any certain amount of predisposition, as manifest due to our experience, from the moments we open our eyes as a infant through childhood, and on through adulthood. That the mind is able to see anything that it wants to see, and that insanity is merely how we interact with others and our selves, as a result of what we think we see.

I say here and now that in the truest understanding of knowing, you only 'believe' you 'know,' that you cannot in fact 'know,' but that, that fact is good enough for you, in order to claim you 'know.' Fine, you are free to lead your life as you see fit, it is in fact only yours to command. And that you do not have to answer to anyone other than whom you choose, that being a god or otherwise. And that you are right, you could never convince me otherwise, as I see with my faculties alone, and I've never really been a gambler, as with 'knowledge.' Or at least I try and keep it to a minimum.

I shall not waste my life anywhere other than on this fence, as it is in fact a very tall one, as I view and expand on, the potential of either of the two vistas. I would rather be certain about being uncertain, as I gaze at the beauty of life, existence, and the universe, as the truth shall eventually unfold, to what ever degree that it does, before I die, than to be certain of either choice, and it being the incorrect one; to bet on a losing horse named regret. "If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice." Which doesn't mean one can't see either choice from their perch, as a matter of fact, from my perspective, I can see that neither purposeful creation nor evolution necessarily disagree with one another. But that the words, as written by some men, can be entirely different.

As we have just referenced, as to your and my beliefs, there is no necessary accounting for the words of men.
I appreciate the points you make, but im going to concentrate this little tad on the red bit...

I totally agree with you that experiencing a little, lets say, synchronicity should only be summed up as coincidence and nothing more...im not so stupid as to be running around claiming to know God exists based on a few or even many coincidences.

Why do you believe that as an individual, a person cannot know that there is a God?
Did you see that I said that it was impossible? Or did I merely say that I think it highly unlikely. That to say one has talked to/seen/touched their god, usually comes with the convenience of either not being able, or saying one does not need to, have multiple fellow witness's of the only thing that I can see, as allowing for "knowledge" of such a god. Anything less is only belief and not knowledge. Anyone that says they know without providing 'proof' such that another can know, cannot provide 'proof' for themselves to know either, though obviously they may not admit it, such is the convenience that they enjoy! Highly suspicious! Or at least, it's highly unlikely. And don't you dare tell me this god of yours, really likes playing hide and go seek, and insists on blind faith. What could possibly be his motivation, and could he blame anyone but himself for non believers. If he's all wise and powerful, he understands the human psyche and how ones belief, or show of faith is dependent largely on learning, via experience, from/of those that tell you. Doesn't make much sense to hold someone accountable for that which they have no knowledge of, or exposure to.
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Re: The universe expands ...

Post by attofishpi »

SpheresOfBalance wrote:Did you see that I said that it was impossible? Or did I merely say that I think it highly unlikely.
So you think it highly unlikely that IF there is a God, that one could know that it exists.....based on this:-

Anyone that says they know without providing 'proof' such that another can know, cannot provide 'proof' for themselves to know either, though obviously they may not admit it, such is the convenience that they enjoy!

When considering that God is all dimensions...are you rational enough to see the obvious flaw in that logic?

SpheresOfBalance wrote:That to say one has talked to/seen/touched their god, usually comes with the convenience of either not being able, or saying one does not need to, have multiple fellow witness's of the only thing that I can see, as allowing for "knowledge" of such a god.
Believe me when i say that that there is NO convenience in not being able to have others 'witness' '''its''' existence.

SpheresOfBalance wrote:And don't you dare tell me this god of yours, really likes playing hide and go seek, and insists on blind faith. What could possibly be his motivation, and could he blame anyone but himself for non believers. If he's all wise and powerful, he understands the human psyche and how ones belief, or show of faith is dependent largely on learning, via experience, from/of those that tell you. Doesn't make much sense to hold someone accountable for that which they have no knowledge of, or exposure to.
I've never stated anyone is accountable for anything in relation to ''faith''.
I will state however that everyone is held in account for their actions...beyond what fellow man sees as justice. It truly is just ice in comparison.

You raise a very good question, albeit in a roundabout way, as to why '''God''' doesnt make itself obvious to all. That is something i have pondered for many years and have come to a conclusion...that there is a reason for DOUBT....and that reason is in relation to ENTROPY.

http://www.androcies.com
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Re: The universe expands ...

Post by Arising_uk »

Godfree wrote:...
The standard view of god is all knowing all powerful ,
so I think I make a very valid point , an all knowing god would indeed be aware of the abuse and suffering that went on , a god would have his own xxxxx channel of the most disgusting and horrible deeds known to man ,
so which do you think god would get the most turned on by , ??
all the killing and madness of war ,
or the more personal up close view of the children being tortured ,
I would say their all knowing god ,
would have to be the sickest and most insane of all ...
Or 'it' could be tuned to all channels and sees that the good outweighs the bad or 'it' weeps daily at the restrictions it put upon itself with 'its' freewill clause or 'it' knows the outcome in the end or any number of scenarios. You just choose the one that suits your stance upon such matters.
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Re: The universe expands ...

Post by Godfree »

attofishpi wrote:
Godfree wrote:What is it you are asking us to consider ,??? ,,does alah exist ,,??? is that the question ,
does Brain Tamaki's god exist , , to say god , is not a specific ,
there are so many versions and concepts of god , you will have to be a little more precise than that ,
I am asking you to consider this. You and physicists (many of whom are theists) are grappling with an ever increasing complexity to describe the very nature of reality.
I am asking you to forget doctrine..when dealing with some theists here on the forum.
I am asking you to consider that this extremely complex reality has aspects that make God entirely plausible.
and finally to realise that all our perception is made up of analysis of pervading 'fields' that are in continual flux.
Plausible , possible ,? believable ?, one can argue whether or not it is theoretically possible,
but I base my world on the most probable , and going by the complete and total lack of any evidence ,
I would have to conclude ,
NOT VERY PROBABLE
Godfree
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Re: The universe expands ...

Post by Godfree »

Arising_uk wrote:
Godfree wrote:...
The standard view of god is all knowing all powerful ,
so I think I make a very valid point , an all knowing god would indeed be aware of the abuse and suffering that went on , a god would have his own xxxxx channel of the most disgusting and horrible deeds known to man ,
so which do you think god would get the most turned on by , ??
all the killing and madness of war ,
or the more personal up close view of the children being tortured ,
I would say their all knowing god ,
would have to be the sickest and most insane of all ...
Or 'it' could be tuned to all channels and sees that the good outweighs the bad or 'it' weeps daily at the restrictions it put upon itself with 'its' freewill clause or 'it' knows the outcome in the end or any number of scenarios. You just choose the one that suits your stance upon such matters.
The difference between you and me mate ,
is you can't see there is no sane or rational way to believe in fairy stories ,
religion is a festoring pile of dung , ancient ignorance , based on even older ignorance ,
for you to rationalize that a god concept is possible/plausible ,
would suggest you are an Agnostic , or Skeptic ,
but not an Atheist as I know the term ,
no Atheist would sit there and try and describe a god model as even remotely possible ,,!!!
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