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Re: God and morality

Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2026 12:06 am
by Immanuel Can
MikeNovack wrote: ↑Tue Oct 06, 2026 11:49 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Oct 06, 2026 6:10 pm

A) What do you mean FROM animals? We still ARE animals.
And why does this particular 'animal' have some kind of moral obligation, whereas no others do? What kind of moral obligation would that even be?
That's YOU, not me.
Not me. It's every secularist who thinks he can justifiably moralize, though. He can't.
if you kill a large animal, you must bring it back to camp to be shared out.
Okay, why?
Societies with this moral rule have a huge advantage* over societies that do not
Let's say that's true. But then, from where do we get the moral claim, "Thou shalt advantage thy society?"

Re: God and morality

Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2026 2:48 am
by MikeNovack
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Oct 07, 2026 12:06 am Let's say that's true. But then, from where do we get the moral claim, "Thou shalt advantage thy society?"
NO SUCH MORAL CLAIM BEING MADE. Evolution is not moral << but see note >>
I am not saying it is moral that a hunter- gatherer society has a moral rule about sharing. I am saying that a hunter-gatherer society that does not have a moral rule about sharing does not/will not exist.

<< note >> Because THIS topic is supposed to be God and morality I chose this example that would explain the "share rule" in terms of "that's how humans are". There ARE religions in which the Creator made all beings with what they needed. In other words, the secularist would say we humans are as we are because evolution made us so and the LH people because the Creator made us so. But in BOTH cases, essentially "we are moral beings because we are humans". We are not orangutans. Or even gibbons << that's as close as matches the enlightenment concept of the pre-societal man >>

Re: God and morality

Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2026 2:52 am
by Immanuel Can
MikeNovack wrote: ↑Wed Oct 07, 2026 2:48 am
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Oct 07, 2026 12:06 am Let's say that's true. But then, from where do we get the moral claim, "Thou shalt advantage thy society?"
NO SUCH MORAL CLAIM BEING MADE. Evolution is not moral
As I have said. Morality does not really exist, according to secular assumptions.
I am saying that a hunter-gatherer society that does not have a moral rule about sharing does not/will not exist.
Well, you're making an argument based on a society you are imagining, and a process you are imagining, and then assuming a result you are only imagining. So that's not really much of an argument.

But even if it were true that societies that share do better than those that don't, why would it follow that this was a moral situation, rather than merely a pragmatic one? And if it has nothing to do with morality, then of what relevance is it to the present topic?

Re: God and morality

Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2026 1:13 pm
by Alexis Jacobi
promethean75 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 06, 2026 5:26 pm We could just say moral behavior is value-laden behavior... which is pretty much all behavior. Yes, man is a moral creature, but he makes the whole shit up as he goes and divides behaviors into groups called 'right' and 'wrong' and 'good' and 'bad' depending on their correspondence to the valuer's values and their use as a means to hypothetical imperatives.
I would suggest the following if only so that we could get to the real cause of the differences rehearsed here day after blessed day. It is, in truth, the Nietzschean problem, the problem that inspired and also mired M. Nietzsche: his incapacity to “believe in” the category of the metaphysical and supernatural. I do not think there is one “philosopher” writing here who can accept the proposition of the existence of metaphysical categories, and naturally any sort of transcendent divinity.

It is a curious conundrum of the modern mind really. Once the conceptual pathway that allows for *all that* has been severed and undermined, thereafter it cannot be restored, cannot function and operate. At that point a new concept supplants the former one: man is just a biological organism that developed awareness. Just that, nothing more. So then, the new concept doubles-down on the only platform of understanding that the concept-system allows. I think Promethean exemplifies it. For him, simply put, there is no Author of morality. Such is “inconceivable”. Everything that follows is therefore logically sound. And as a system it operates within Naturalism. The only model is that of Nature.

On the other side of this problem is the intellectual situation of those who have internal and intuited connections with what I describe by the relatively coherent term “the metaphysical”. But note: Our “certainties” function for us on a gradient. Some sense vaguely that there are transcendent imperatives. Others have a conviction that is unmovable. And then there is the issue of: Well okay, I accept metaphysical and supernatural categories, but which established (religious) system will I align with? One in particular? Why?

My view is that for we Occidentals we cannot help but present as “rebels” from the overarching and undergirding metaphysics that define our civilizational trajectory. We certainly can resist it but we cannot escape it. But saying this I will only stimulate our rebelliousness to “prove me wrong”. I think this explains Novak’s position.

But once on has accepted (reasoned out; intuited; arrived at ‘belief’) that there is an Author and Authority, that is the point where one steps into “commitment”, and commitment, similar to Nietzchean counter-commitment, does indeed construct itself. I.e. builds upon what is reasoned and intuited (that which is described by the Latin term intellectus and carries itself into the world of choices, behaviors, and all else.

Curiously, when one thus chooses the conceptual order of metaphysical imperatives, one finds oneself immediately in the position of “rebel” to the Reigning Conceptual Model. That model can be very authoritarian and demanding. Why? Because it cannot but see itself as ‘the real truth’ and, let’s face it, that real truth is indeed The Power Principle — just as Herr Nietzsche cannot but conclude.

That is to say “the world” and certainly of “modern society” and its astounding Naturalistic operating rules and imperatives. It is a sort of mechanism of inevitability, is it not? And one is choosing to oppose that mechanism, to act against its imperatives of inevitability.

Re: God and morality

Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2026 1:40 pm
by phyllo
That is to say “the world” and certainly of “modern society” and its astounding Naturalistic operating rules and imperatives. It is a sort of mechanism of inevitability, is it not? And one is choosing to oppose that mechanism, to act against its imperatives of inevitability.
What can be more inevitable than a god's plan and purpose for you?

Re: God and morality

Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2026 1:45 pm
by Alexis Jacobi
phyllo wrote: ↑Wed Oct 07, 2026 1:40 pm
That is to say “the world” and certainly of “modern society” and its astounding Naturalistic operating rules and imperatives. It is a sort of mechanism of inevitability, is it not? And one is choosing to oppose that mechanism, to act against its imperatives of inevitability.
What can be more inevitable than a god's plan and purpose for you?
I am uncertain what you are actually asking.

Re: God and morality

Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2026 2:25 pm
by MikeNovack
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Oct 07, 2026 2:52 am
MikeNovack wrote: ↑Wed Oct 07, 2026 2:48 am
NO SUCH MORAL CLAIM BEING MADE. Evolution is not moral
As I have said. Morality does not really exist, according to secular assumptions.
I am saying that a hunter-gatherer society that does not have a moral rule about sharing does not/will not exist.
But even if it were true that societies that share do better than those that don't, why would it follow that this was a moral situation, rather than merely a pragmatic one? And if it has nothing to do with morality, then of what relevance is it to the present topic?
Human societies (at the level being discussed) can't BE "pragmatic". Not thinking entities. Not choosing "have this rule and so survive" vs "don't have this rule and be out competed". Long ago some animals of the obligatory social sort began sometimes hunting large prey and those in which this rule of sharing arose out competed those that did not. So now part of being human.

Note secondary rule arising (observe behavior in "the ultimatum game"). How do societies that have this fare compared to societies without (and where sharing might break down? But PRAGMATIC is the wrong concept as a society is not a thinking entity. We are not YET to the point of discussing our "modern" (some places, last 10,000 years) large scale societies.

Re: God and morality

Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2026 3:20 pm
by phyllo
Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Wed Oct 07, 2026 1:45 pm
phyllo wrote: ↑Wed Oct 07, 2026 1:40 pm
That is to say “the world” and certainly of “modern society” and its astounding Naturalistic operating rules and imperatives. It is a sort of mechanism of inevitability, is it not? And one is choosing to oppose that mechanism, to act against its imperatives of inevitability.
What can be more inevitable than a god's plan and purpose for you?
I am uncertain what you are actually asking.
I'm saying that naturalism seems to offer more freedom and less inevitablity than a God which selects a meaning, a purpose and a plan for you.

Re: God and morality

Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2026 3:27 pm
by Immanuel Can
MikeNovack wrote: ↑Wed Oct 07, 2026 2:25 pm Human societies (at the level being discussed) can't BE "pragmatic".
That's not obvious. People can always choose to be either pragmatic or moral. What they can't always do, as you can't seem to do, is to explain why we ought to be moral, rather than merely pragmatic.

What duty does secularism impose on us to be moral?

Re: God and morality

Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2026 5:30 pm
by MikeNovack
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Oct 07, 2026 3:27 pm
MikeNovack wrote: ↑Wed Oct 07, 2026 2:25 pm Human societies (at the level being discussed) can't BE "pragmatic".
That's not obvious. People can always choose to be either pragmatic or moral. What they can't always do, as you can't seem to do, is to explain why we ought to be moral, rather than merely pragmatic.

What duty does secularism impose on us to be moral?
PEOPLE (individual persons) can choose to be either pragmatic or moral. A SOCIETY is not a person, has no mind, can't choose or not choose anything. << not "society" as in the current discussion >>

Again (like that other forum thread) time machine and translator. You can ask a member of that hunter-gatherer society "is it pragmatic that you share large kills?" "Does this mean more food amongst you than without that rule?" And you get an answer, "Sure, makes sense. But that's what we'd be doing anyway. It's what PEOPLE do."

We will be much later, discussing large scale societies, before getting to societies having rules by intent. As a foretaste of that, "the ultimatum game". Suppose instead of individuals playing we had teams (at least on the choosing side) so the decision had to be arrived at by talking it over. More or less force, at least heavily influence the decision to be rational/pragmatil. Do you not see that this would affect the result?

Re: God and morality

Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2026 6:25 pm
by Immanuel Can
MikeNovack wrote: ↑Wed Oct 07, 2026 5:30 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Oct 07, 2026 3:27 pm
MikeNovack wrote: ↑Wed Oct 07, 2026 2:25 pm Human societies (at the level being discussed) can't BE "pragmatic".
That's not obvious. People can always choose to be either pragmatic or moral. What they can't always do, as you can't seem to do, is to explain why we ought to be moral, rather than merely pragmatic.

What duty does secularism impose on us to be moral?
PEOPLE (individual persons) can choose to be either pragmatic or moral. A SOCIETY is not a person, has no mind, can't choose or not choose anything. << not "society" as in the current discussion >>
Show me where I asked about a "society" choosing anything.
It's what PEOPLE do."
Some of the other things "people do"? Enslaving their neighbours, prostitution, murdering children, fighting wars...all not particularly useful to survival, at least for the victims, but still very much "what people do"?

Given secularism, why are they morally bad if they do these things, which are, after all, only "what people do"?

Re: God and morality

Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2026 9:07 pm
by Alexis Jacobi
phyllo wrote: ↑Wed Oct 07, 2026 3:20 pm [I'm saying that naturalism seems to offer more freedom and less inevitablity than a God which selects a meaning, a purpose and a plan for you.
Yes, that does seem obvious. But we are talking about ‘morality’, right? And though there may be zillions of immoral possibilities, it does seem that moral systems are more restrictive.

Re: God and morality

Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2026 9:18 pm
by Immanuel Can
Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Wed Oct 07, 2026 9:07 pm
phyllo wrote: ↑Wed Oct 07, 2026 3:20 pm [I'm saying that naturalism seems to offer more freedom and less inevitablity than a God which selects a meaning, a purpose and a plan for you.
Yes, that does seem obvious.
Actually, I don't think it does seem obvious.

The world supposed by Naturalism is a world of nothing but cause-and-effect, essentially. And that means that from whatever the first motion in the universe was (the Big Bang or whatever came before it), all events were guaranteed to happen exactly as they did. That's Hard Determinism, not "less inevitability."

And in that world, there's no such thing as "morality," because there are no genuine and actual choices, only illusory and ostensible ones. That's inevitability, not morality.

Re: God and morality

Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2026 10:44 pm
by Alexis Jacobi
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Oct 07, 2026 9:18 pm The world supposed by Naturalism is a world of nothing but cause-and-effect, essentially.
The world of nature seem to be that, and thus determined. The only point at which the beginning of “freedom” (choice) exists is in animals. There is a degree of free choice. It is a primitive aware-intelligence but even limitedly might be of the same sort of choice that a fully “naturalistic” man is presumed to have.

It seems to me that all men, all humans, are naturally metaphysical beings, but the naturalistic man operates on a lower level, more similar to nature’s beings.

To perceive or intuit a “higher metaphysical realm” allows for a wide, entire order of possibilities that “the naturalistic man” cannot access, because he cannot (or will not) conceive it.

Re: God and morality

Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2026 11:37 pm
by Immanuel Can
Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Wed Oct 07, 2026 10:44 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Oct 07, 2026 9:18 pm The world supposed by Naturalism is a world of nothing but cause-and-effect, essentially.
The world of nature seem to be that, and thus determined. The only point at which the beginning of “freedom” (choice) exists is in animals.
No, they pretty much operate by instinct, and instinct is fairly Deterministic.
It seems to me that all men, all humans, are naturally metaphysical beings, but the naturalistic man operates on a lower level, more similar to nature’s beings.

To perceive or intuit a “higher metaphysical realm” allows for a wide, entire order of possibilities that “the naturalistic man” cannot access, because he cannot (or will not) conceive it.
Ah. What you call "the higher metaphysical realm," I would simply call "spiritual." And yes, man is a spiritual being, as well as a physical one. And most people today seem to have denied their spiritual nature, and focused on the physical...particularly in the affluent West. However, that doesn't seem to have left them very spiritually happy.