Philosophy Now Forum

You and others seem to think that there is one solution to the problem.

Hamas stops fighting. The hostages are returned to Israel ...

and everything will be perfect and wonderful.

The Palestinians will be content with not having a country of their own. The Palestinians will be content to be second class citizens with partial rights within Israel. Or they can go someplace else ... like Sweden.

What could be simpler?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Dec 10, 2023 7:54 pm I wish Israel wasn't killing journalists.
I have not heard that they are...and I would be very circumspect about believing any such report. For one thing, it makes no sense for them to do that; journalists are attached to news agencies, and a country desperately in need of good PR would not find it strategic.

You are just not paying attention.

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2023/ ... d-2023-ifj

And the whole world heard about Shireen Abu Akleh, last year. Assassinated by bullet to the head.
https://cpj.org/reports/2023/05/deadly- ... countable/

If you can't be bothered to follow the news then perhaps you ought not to be commenting.

The man we knew was called by the IDF, before he was killed with a "surgical" drone strike. This is their standard MO for Palestinians.

phyllo wrote: ↑Sun Dec 10, 2023 8:27 pm You and others seem to think that there is one solution to the problem.

Hamas stops fighting. The hostages are returned to Israel ...

and everything will be perfect and wonderful.

The Palestinians will be content with not having a country of their own. The Palestinians will be content to be second class citizens with partial rights within Israel. Or they can go someplace else ... like Sweden.

What could be simpler?

The sad irony is that the same clowns that think that would hate to have Palestinians come to their country to seek refuge.
The depths of depravity is staggering.
Fact is that a new generation of orphans will have little option but to join the fight for the next round in ten years time.
And this is what Netanyahu wants.
That is why he has funded Hamas.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sun Dec 10, 2023 8:27 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Dec 10, 2023 7:54 pm I wish Israel wasn't killing journalists.
I have not heard that they are...and I would be very circumspect about believing any such report. For one thing, it makes no sense for them to do that; journalists are attached to news agencies, and a country desperately in need of good PR would not find it strategic.

You are just not paying attention.

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2023/ ... d-2023-ifj

Major problem: it says that journalists "were killed." It doesn't say who did it, or why, or what side each of the journalists were working for, or what they were actually doing when they were killed. We need to know that, to know if we should be blaming Israel, or Hamas, or both, or other agencies. But we're not being told.

And the whole world heard about Shireen Abu Akleh, last year.

Problem: we don't know why she was there, what she was involved in, why the shooting started, whether she was killed by a stray bullet or an assassination attempt by her own people...it could be literally anything, since there's no autopsy and no findings. What we know is a woman who had entered a dangerous area for some reason she had was struck by a bullet. What else do we know?

It's facile to say, "This is on Israel." Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. More likely, many of the deaths are by Hamas, or by accidental shooting, or by people posing as journalists who were really involved in terrorism, or even people whom others only named a "journalist" after they were killed, because that plays better in the international press. We don't have any information here.

And I must say, if you can't be more thoughtful and critical, should you be chiming in?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Dec 10, 2023 8:42 pm Major problem: it says that journalists "were killed."

If you were paying attention you would find so much more.
I can keep posting links to you until my fingers bleed, but really you do not give a flying fuck.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/ ... s-watchdog

https://en.abna24.com/story/1418119

https://www.msn.com/en-ae/news/other/75 ... r-AA1lhJbg

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-65524002

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sun Dec 10, 2023 8:58 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Dec 10, 2023 8:42 pm Major problem: it says that journalists "were killed."

If you were paying attention you would find so much more.

Come back to me when you can show exactly why people died, at whose hands, with what intention and for what purpose. Otherwise, the numbers might well mean nothing more than that Hamas is much more homicidal than most people know.

Until then, have a nice life.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Dec 10, 2023 9:01 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sun Dec 10, 2023 8:58 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Dec 10, 2023 8:42 pm Major problem: it says that journalists "were killed."

If you were paying attention you would find so much more.

Come back to me when you can show exactly why people died, at whose hands, with what intention and for what purpose. Otherwise, the numbers might well mean nothing more than that Hamas is much more homicidal than most people know.

Until then, have a nice life.

Go and fuck yourslef

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Dec 10, 2023 8:42 pm And I must say, if you can't be more thoughtful and critical, should you be chiming in?

He has every right to chime in. If you read a few posts back, he lost someone he knew who was a journalist in the fighting.

The problem is that there is no clear "best" outcome in this whole fiasco. There are no knights in shining armor to cheer support for. Gaza was in horrible shape before the attack. If all Gazans can hope for is to go back to those conditions, then it would be pretty difficult for any of us to expect them to surrender. It would be nice if things were black and white, however, they don't seem to be.

If there's a God who is good, then I suspect none of us are in God's favor right now, considering all that is going on and has gone on for the past 100 years (probably all the way back to the first human societies). It's not just bad guys versus good guys.

Brianna Joy Gray interviews Miko Peled (Israeli pro-Palestinian activist).

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Dec 10, 2023 9:01 pm Come back to me when you can show exactly why people died, at whose hands, with what intention and for what purpose. Otherwise, the numbers might well mean nothing more than that Hamas is much more homicidal than most people know.

It would be a brave effort — given your (and Gary’s) (and Veggie’s) near total ignorance of the real situation — to spend an hour taking in Miko Peled and Brianna’s amazing exchange.

As I watched it I mused: if the man-god you [Manny] say you worship were present and thinking and engaging morally, it would be very similar to what Peled is doing and saying: real, profound moral work.

The opposite of what you [Manny] actually do — which is to repeat lies and self-deceptions with zero grounding in the truth.

They say that the very *essence* of Satan is in the fact that *he lies*. So *to lie* and invest in lies we say are truths — that’s the devil’s realm. It all certainly has metaphysical dimensions.

Excuse the seemingly religious departure. It is just a way to draw out what we are really dealing with here.

What’s the real moral work for us then?

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sun Dec 10, 2023 9:08 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Dec 10, 2023 8:42 pm And I must say, if you can't be more thoughtful and critical, should you be chiming in?

He has every right to chime in. If you read a few posts back, he lost someone he knew who was a journalist in the fighting.

I didn't.

Do you believe it? Why?

Gaza was in horrible shape before the attack.

Not so horrible, actually, except for being ruled brutally by Hamas. They had their territory and their independence, short of doing things like shooting rockets and slitting throats. Lots of people in the world have had it a lot worse.

If there's a God who is good, then I suspect none of us are in God's favor right now, considering all that is going on and has gone on for the past 100 years (probably all the way back to the first human societies).

So maybe we'd all better do something about that.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sun Dec 10, 2023 8:58 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Dec 10, 2023 8:42 pm Major problem: it says that journalists "were killed."

If you were paying attention you would find so much more.
I can keep posting links to you until my fingers bleed, but really you do not give a flying fuck.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/ ... s-watchdog

https://en.abna24.com/story/1418119

https://www.msn.com/en-ae/news/other/75 ... r-AA1lhJbg

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-65524002

So just links then, to carefully cherry-picked sources

phyllo wrote: ↑Sun Dec 10, 2023 8:27 pm You and others seem to think that there is one solution to the problem.

Hamas stops fighting. The hostages are returned to Israel ...

and everything will be perfect and wonderful.

The Palestinians will be content with not having a country of their own. The Palestinians will be content to be second class citizens with partial rights within Israel. Or they can go someplace else ... like Sweden.

What could be simpler?

What's with the flag? Is that a woke thing? A wee bit of virtue-signalling? Which side are wokies on there? Was that a tough decision? What was it based on?

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sun Dec 10, 2023 8:27 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Dec 10, 2023 7:54 pm I wish Israel wasn't killing journalists.
I have not heard that they are...and I would be very circumspect about believing any such report. For one thing, it makes no sense for them to do that; journalists are attached to news agencies, and a country desperately in need of good PR would not find it strategic.

You are just not paying attention.

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2023/ ... d-2023-ifj

And the whole world heard about Shireen Abu Akleh, last year. Assassinated by bullet to the head.
https://cpj.org/reports/2023/05/deadly- ... countable/

If you can't be bothered to follow the news then perhaps you ought not to be commenting.

The man we knew was called by the IDF, before he was killed with a "surgical" drone strike. This is their standard MO for Palestinians.

Kindly go away, Amod.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sun Dec 10, 2023 12:33 pm

It makes someone a Jew-hating, sociopathic, hypocritical c t.