Philosophy Now Forum

henry quirk wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 6:38 pm

Harbal wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 5:26 pm

henry quirk wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 5:18 pm

My shotgun is my property, yes?

Do you want to classify my shotgun as sumthin' other than property? If so, explain your thinkin'.

Other than for the purpose of insuring it, I see no reason to classify it as anything other than a gun.

My gun, yes? My car, yes? My house, yes?

If only we has a generic placeholder for things that belong to me, or you, or anyone.

Possessions? Belongings? I guess those are unnecessary too? Perhaps my and mine ought to go as well?

-----

With Common there is the specter of guilty till proven innocent.

With Harbal it's the specter of Newspeak.

I was only suggesting we call a spade a spade, or, in this case, a gun a gun.

Skepdick wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 6:51 pm

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 6:47 pm Not using a parachute means certain death without one, so yes using one is a form of controlling when I die as and through the knowledge I have. But that's not what is being discussed here is it?

It's exactly what's being discussed.

Nobody is safe. Safety is an illusion. Nothing can guarantee a safe passage in life. You can't decide when it's your time to go.

So why the parachute?

But you keep changing the subject, the subject is about guns not parachutes.


I know I'll die without a parachute, but I don't know if I will die, or not die, if I do not own or carry a gun. That's why I don't need a gun in my life, because I have no idea if I will die or not, whether I have one or not, so why should I care about protecting myself, if I can't know for sure, or be certain about what will happen to me? whether I am carrying or not carrying a gun is not going to protect me if it's my turn to die, no matter how my death happens.

That's what this discussion is about. It's about the absurdity of believing that owning a gun will make you safer and live longer. No one can know that for definite, but anyone can know for definite that they will die skydiving without a parachute, you see?

commonsense wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 6:51 pm

henry quirk wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 5:44 pm

commonsense wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 5:31 pmIf you don’t own one, it cannot be stolen by someone who commits armed robbery and kills an innocent. It cannot be used by you to kill innocent people in the future, should you become inclined to do so.

The two assumptions here are...

1- I'm not capable of securing my property.

2- I might commit a crime.

Can you offer any evidence of either?

No.

Can you offer any evidence that neither will ever occur in the future?

So, my incompetence is assumed and I must prove otherwise.

My future guilt is assumed and I must prove otherwise.

Silly me, all this time I thought I was innocent till proven guilty, not guilty till proven innocent

Harbal wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 6:59 pm

henry quirk wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 6:38 pm

Harbal wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 5:26 pm

Other than for the purpose of insuring it, I see no reason to classify it as anything other than a gun.

My gun, yes? My car, yes? My house, yes?

If only we has a generic placeholder for things that belong to me, or you, or anyone.

Possessions? Belongings? I guess those are unnecessary too? Perhaps my and mine ought to go as well?

-----

With Common there is the specter of guilty till proven innocent.

With Harbal it's the specter of Newspeak.

I was only suggesting we call a spade a spade, or, in this case, a gun a gun.

Which brings us back to: is my shotgun my property? Is it mine?

It is or it isn't.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 7:00 pm

Skepdick wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 6:51 pm

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 6:47 pm Not using a parachute means certain death without one, so yes using one is a form of controlling when I die as and through the knowledge I have. But that's not what is being discussed here is it?

It's exactly what's being discussed.

Nobody is safe. Safety is an illusion. Nothing can guarantee a safe passage in life. You can't decide when it's your time to go.

So why the parachute?

But you keep changing the subject, the subject is about guns not parachutes.

No I am not - the subject is preventing death. With parachutes. Or guns.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 7:00 pm I know I'll die without a parachute, but I don't know if I will die, or not die, if I do not own or carry a gun.

No you won't die without a parachute - just don't skydive. That's entirely in your control. Whereas somebody trying to murder me - that's not in my control.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 7:00 pm That's why I don't need a gun in my life, because I have no idea if I will die or not, whether I have one or not, so why should I care about protecting myself

Well, how is a parachute any different if you don't know how to use it?

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 7:00 pm , if I can't know for sure, or be certain about what will happen to me? whether I am carrying or not carrying a gun is not going to protect me if it's my turn to die, no matter how my death happens.

Well, you can't know for sure, or be certain what will happen to you with a parachute. There's many things that can go wrong. So why do you need one?

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 7:00 pm That's what this discussion is about. It's about the absurdity of believing that owning a gun will make you safer and live longer. No one can know that for definite, but anyone can know for definite that they will die skydiving without a parachute, you see?

But nobody can know for definite that their gun; or parachute will work.

I am way better at splitting hairs than you are...

henry quirk wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 7:02 pm
Which brings us back to: is my shotgun my property? Is it mine?

It is or it isn't.

Well I certainly don't want it, henry, I don't know anyone who deserves shooting.

Harbal wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 7:09 pm

henry quirk wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 7:02 pm
Which brings us back to: is my shotgun my property? Is it mine?

It is or it isn't.

Well I certainly don't want it, henry, I don't know anyone who deserves shooting.

Is my shotgun mine?

Yes or no.

Skepdick wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 6:53 pm
Well, it's not just a sense. It's more like a fact.

I am still here. The guys who tried to murder me aren't. So I guess it's was a bit like a parachute - if I didn't have it...

So you have had some guys attempt but failed to murder you because in your mind, you had your own gun, so you honestly now believe that it was your gun that kept you safe and here now.

Well, my story, a true story also, is that I was stopped in broad daylight, around 3pm in the afternoon to be precise by a gun weilding man as I was just inncocently walking back home from a trip out to the library. The guy who was carrying a loaded shot gun, aimed it in my face. I was unarmed, and I lived to tell this tale. The whole terrifying event never once made me want to own a gun to protect myself in the future, I still go out unarmed. That's because I'm not scared of living. I have no idea if I am going to be held at gunpoint when I go outside or not, so I do not have thoughts about needing to protect myself. Unlike if I chose to go skydiving without a parachute, that would be a pretty dumb thing to do already having prior knowledge that the event would certainly kill me for a fact.

Skepdick wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 6:53 pmWhich part of me attempting to live as long as possible is me being "scared of living"?

The need to protect your desire to live as long as possible by owning a gun. Which is based on the irrational fear of losing control of being in control of your life, in fact you need to be in control of your life so much, you think you could at least prevent the loss of control by carrying your own gun or any lethal weapon for that matter as a sure guaranteed means of protecting yourself. That's the difference between you and me. I'm not concerned with trying to control what I know I cannot control and never will have any control over.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 7:29 pm

Skepdick wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 6:53 pm
Well, it's not just a sense. It's more like a fact.

I am still here. The guys who tried to murder me aren't. So I guess it's was a bit like a parachute - if I didn't have it...

So you have had some guys attempt but failed to murder you because in your mind, you had your own gun, so you honestly now believe that it was your gun that kept you safe and here now.

Well, my story, a true story also, is that I was stopped in broad daylight, around 3pm in the afternoon to be precise by a gun weilding man as I was just inncocently walking back home from a trip out to the library. The guy who was carrying a loaded shot gun, aimed it in my face. I was unarmed, and I lived to tell this tale. The whole terrifying event never once made me want to own a gun to protect myself in the future, I still go out unarmed. That's because I'm not scared of living. I have no idea if I am going to be held at gunpoint when I go outside or not, so I do not have thoughts about needing to protect myself. Unlike if I chose to go skydiving without a parachute, that would be a pretty dumb thing to do already having prior knowledge that the event would certainly kill me for a fact.

Cool story bro.

I wasn't being held at gun point. I was being shot at.

Guess what made them stop shooting?

henry quirk wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 7:15 pm

Harbal wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 7:09 pm
Well I certainly don't want it, henry, I don't know anyone who deserves shooting.

Is my shotgun mine?

Yes or no.

It almost feels like you are pointing it at me, henry.

I don't know if it's yours, henry. If the rumours are true, you might well have stolen it.

Skepdick wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 7:35 pm
Cool story bro.

I wasn't being held at gun point. I was being shot at.

Guess what made them stop shooting?

The price of bullets?

Skepdick wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 7:06 pm But nobody can know for definite that their gun; or parachute will work.

I agree, it's not a guarantee whether the parachute or gun will work.
Personally, I wouldn't do a skydive, simply because I don't like taking risks. I understand there is a risk to my life in every moment, whether I die of natural causes, or I am just hanging around in the safety of my house or I am outside. But supposing I am not suddenly struck down by natural causes, and that I am alive, where-ever I am, or whatever I was doing, there would still not be the slightest remote possibility that would even tempt me in anyway to own a gun. I'd honestly feel like a right idiot walking around with a fully loaded gun stuffed down the back of my pants.

Skepdick wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 7:06 pmI am way better at splitting hairs than you are...

We'll see. Maybe you are, maybe you are not, lets just wait and see.

Skepdick wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 7:35 pm
I wasn't being held at gun point. I was being shot at.

Guess what made them stop shooting?

Well you didn't actually say you were being shot at did you. You just said someone tried to murder you, but in your defense your own gun is why you are still here.

So some guys were shooting at you, but they obviously failed to kill you because you waved your gun at them in defense...so what happened to the guys who were shooting at you, to make them stop shooting you?

And why were they shooting at you, were you just some random innocent unarmed vulnerable person, like I was when I was held at gunpoint, and yet lived to tell the tale of how I do not to this day need to take a gun with me everytime I go outside, nor do I have the slightest urge to buy one for self defense.. considering I might not have even been here today had the guy decided to pull the trigger in that moment when he could have done quite easily and effortlessly, and there was nothing to stop him from doing so. I guess he just couldn't bring himself round to shooting an innocent unarmed person, I guess.

Skepdick wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 7:35 pmThe guys who tried to murder me aren't

Ah, so you killed those guys who were shooting at you, so you wouldn't die, and made sure they died not you.
Why were they shooting at you, did they have a reason to do so, or was you just an innocent person trying to live your best life for as long as possible? even if it meant killing someone else, so that you would be protected.

To be honest with you, I don't think I would be living my best life knowing I'd killed someone, nor would I want to live in a world knowing that everytime I went outside I had better make sure I carry a gun in order to protect myself from all the other gun owners. To me, that wouldn't prompt me to prolong my life knowing how dangerous it is just to step outside the front door and to face coming face to face with other gun owners that are everywhere these days.

What an awfully stressful way to live your life. But if that's the way it has to be then I guess that's what you have to do to survive I suppose. Me, I'd rather not impose that kind of stress on my bro's in the first place.

Harbal wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 7:35 pm

henry quirk wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 7:15 pm

Harbal wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 7:09 pm
Well I certainly don't want it, henry, I don't know anyone who deserves shooting.

Is my shotgun mine?

Yes or no.

It almost feels like you are pointing it at me, henry.

I don't know if it's yours, henry. If the rumours are true, you might well have stolen it.

Well, okay then. Another dead end conversation.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 8:06 pm

Harbal wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 7:35 pm

henry quirk wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 7:15 pm

Is my shotgun mine?

Yes or no.

It almost feels like you are pointing it at me, henry.

I don't know if it's yours, henry. If the rumours are true, you might well have stolen it.

Well, okay then. Another dead end conversation.

I'm sorry you feel that way, henry. I didn't find it completely unrewarding, myself.