Philosophy Now Forum

attofishpi wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 10:56 am

Harbal wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 10:52 am

attofishpi wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 10:18 am I don't understand that Harbal, your soul IS you.

If I reduce "me" down to its essence, I am consciousness with a particular identity. My identity is formed from my experiences, and my memories. After death, when my brain, in which my experiences and memories are stored, and on which my consciousness depends for its existence, is no longer functioning, what remains that is in any sense me?

Well that's easy - your POV.

So in the case of reincarnation, reborn with all your previous knowledge wiped, but still you and your point-of-view.

But a point of view is a position from which one forms an impression, so what I am asking is, what is the nature of the thing that occupies that position?

Age wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 11:11 am

Harbal wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 10:08 am After death, when my brain, in which my experiences and memories are stored, and on which my consciousness depends for its existence, is no longer functioning, what remains that is in any sense me?

Those, stored, 'experiences and memories', which 'you' speak of here, exist as 'thoughts', which, as I have been saying from the outset in this forum, the word 'you', 'me', 'person', or 'i' refers to the invisible 'thoughts', and it is the 'invisible' part of the human being, which is said to be the 'soul' and the one that 'lives on', or 'remains' after-(the)-life of the body is no more. That is; after the human body has stopped breathing and stopped pumping blood.

That, literally, invisible 'person' or 'me', in EVERY human body, remains in the sense that those 'thoughts', which were previously changing in a living human body, were being 'passed on' and/or 'forming' "other" 'people', or 'souls', if you like, which keep that 'old soul', if you like, 'living on', in this One and ONLY place, also known as the Universe, or Life, Itself.

That is a legitimate definition of the soul, but not, I suspect, the most commonly agreed upon. I want to know what the kind of soul that has an actual existence after physical death consists of.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 9:50 am You make me sound like I am some sort of Christian evangelist!!!

No, you just say things like this...

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sun Feb 19, 2023 10:53 pm (according to my sage) atheists continue to be reborn into stupid, silly, shallow afterlives (they progress to be raised by atheists).

Back to the thread topic...

attofishpi wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 9:50 am what do you believe regarding 'soul'? Do you think you have one, and do you have any belief in reincarnation?

I think the concept of a soul tends to be yet another human idea/belief in individuality that lives on, and no I don't believe in that (personally). I know there are compelling cases for reincarnation but it seems to me that they might just as easily be explained by an interconnected, whole web of energy that we're all part of. In other words, we might all have access to memories of, or tap into being, an ancient temple priestess or some other 'past' figure... or anything else. We might all be part of everything.

When I refer to my 'soul' (e.g. "I feel it in my soul"), I'm talking about the depth or wholeness of my human self. When this body dies, I don't think there will be a use for all of the ideas that were associated with this world. Rather, it might be a different kind of awareness and creative potential not associated with a specific individual.

Harbal wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 11:43 am I want to know what the kind of soul that has an actual existence after physical death consists of.

I suggest that while we exist in human form, the closest we can get to visualizing the soul is in the speculative answer I provided on page three of this thread where I stated this...

seeds wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 8:34 pm If within the context of a vivid dream you created a mirror within your mind - a mirror that could actually reflect an image back at you, then, looking into it, I suggest that you would not only see what your soul (the creator of the mirror) truly is and what it looks like,...

...but you would also understand what the greater "SOUL" of this universe (God) looks like, for (allegedly) we are its familial offspring, created in its image.

I've created a theory called "The Ultimate Seeds" in which I try to explain what the soul's ultimate form and eternal purpose might be. And with that theory I also created cartoons of how skeptics would no doubt respond to the theory...



The captions read as follows:

"He was so young, why did he have to die?"

"Why does God allow this to happen?"

"This is such a tragedy!"

"Death is so cruel!"

"Oakley, get down off of that ladder!"

"I think there's something up here!"

"Oakley, there's nothing up there! Have some respect for the dead, please!"

Meanwhile, up in acorn heaven...

"Wow! Just wait till the gang sees this!"

Captions:

"It's true, you are going to become a wonderful and glorious thing called a "tree." You will tower a hundred feet into the air and unfurl your beautiful green leaves to the sun!"

"That's the craziest thing I have ever heard. What are you anyway, some kind of a nut?"...

...Humph!! Tree!...leaves! How stupid does he think I am?"

"Is it my deodorant or what?"

"Once again, Oakley the acorn fails to promote his theory."

Clearly, Oakley was speaking an obvious truth that his unenlightened sibling was unaware of.

Now, of course, someone might point out that us "Ultimate Seeds" are in a worse situation than acorns, because "theoretically" the acorns can at least see what they will eventually become as they sit on the ground beneath a towering oak tree.

However, that's not true, for we too are capable of seeing what we will become.

Indeed, as bonkers as this may sound, as we stand on the earth and look out into the universe, we are also viewing what we (our souls) will become.

In other words, our souls, which are momentarily held within these seed-like bodies, hold the encapsulated potential of becoming a literal universe just like the one in which we were conceived.

And that is something that I have tried to help us visualize in my flagship illustration...



Yeah, yeah, I know...

"That's the craziest thing I have ever heard. What are you anyway, some kind of a nut?"

If nothing else, Harbal, I highly doubt that there could exist a more "natural" and "organic" vision of reality than what the "Ultimate Seed" theory suggests.
_______

seeds wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 6:58 pm If nothing else, Harbal, I highly doubt that there could exist a more "natural" and "organic" vision of reality than what the "Ultimate Seed" theory suggests.
_______

In your acorn/tree analogy, we are the acorns, but why do you think we aren't already the trees? There is nothing to suggest that trees go on to a higher level of existence when they die, what evidence is there that we do? But supposing you are right, and the soul does "transcend", what does it take of us with it? Our consciousness, memories, thoughts and experiences are brain dependant, so when the brain dies and these things are gone, what is left of our identity that carries on as the soul?

Harbal wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 7:29 pm

seeds wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 6:58 pm If nothing else, Harbal, I highly doubt that there could exist a more "natural" and "organic" vision of reality than what the "Ultimate Seed" theory suggests.
_______

In your acorn/tree analogy, we are the acorns, but why do you think we aren't already the trees? There is nothing to suggest that trees go on to a higher level of existence when they die, what evidence is there that we do? But supposing you are right, and the soul does "transcend", what does it take of us with it? Our consciousness, memories, thoughts and experiences are brain dependant, so when the brain dies and these things are gone, what is left of our identity that carries on as the soul?

Those are my questions as well. Can't wait to hear the answers. As a matter of personal taste, I tend to favor the 70 virgins theory. But I suppose that's just my nutty self thinking. Definitely give a "A" it artisticness for the cartoons, though. I don't think I would have understood the theory very clearly without the cartoons.

Harbal wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 11:43 am I want to know what the kind of soul that has an actual existence after physical death consists of.

Ionized particles of your former self; a ghost that want's a body. I'm absolutely certain of that. There's a picture of me in an intermediate state after I died, before being reborn again. It looked completely featureless and really lonely since nothing could mold or touch it before it became physical once again...an agent of the senses.

So here I am, intentionally writing a bunch of BS on a BS thread which theoretically has no ending because there is no conclusion to end it, except the real one: it's all bunk!

Dubious wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 11:44 pm

Harbal wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 11:43 am I want to know what the kind of soul that has an actual existence after physical death consists of.

Ionized particles of your former self; a ghost that want's a body. I'm absolutely certain of that. There's a picture of me in an intermediate state after I died, before being reborn again. It looked completely featureless and really lonely since nothing could mold or touch it before it became physical once again...an agent of the senses.

So here I am, intentionally writing a bunch of BS on a BS thread which theoretically has no ending because there is no conclusion to end it, except the real one: it's all bunk!

Crap. I guess no 70 virgins then. So what's up next for entertainment? Bingo?

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 12:41 am

Dubious wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 11:44 pm

Harbal wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 11:43 am I want to know what the kind of soul that has an actual existence after physical death consists of.

Ionized particles of your former self; a ghost that want's a body. I'm absolutely certain of that. There's a picture of me in an intermediate state after I died, before being reborn again. It looked completely featureless and really lonely since nothing could mold or touch it before it became physical once again...an agent of the senses.

So here I am, intentionally writing a bunch of BS on a BS thread which theoretically has no ending because there is no conclusion to end it, except the real one: it's all bunk!

Crap. I guess no 70 virgins then. So what's up next for entertainment? Bingo?

Isn't that what philosophy forums are for! Think of all the variety you're getting being both spectator and participant!

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 12:41 am

Dubious wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 11:44 pm

Harbal wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 11:43 am I want to know what the kind of soul that has an actual existence after physical death consists of.

Ionized particles of your former self; a ghost that want's a body. I'm absolutely certain of that. There's a picture of me in an intermediate state after I died, before being reborn again. It looked completely featureless and really lonely since nothing could mold or touch it before it became physical once again...an agent of the senses.

So here I am, intentionally writing a bunch of BS on a BS thread which theoretically has no ending because there is no conclusion to end it, except the real one: it's all bunk!

Crap. I guess no 70 virgins then. So what's up next for entertainment? Bingo?

Why on Earth would you want 70 virgins? I'd prefer 70 sluts.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 6:04 pm

attofishpi wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 9:50 am You make me sound like I am some sort of Christian evangelist!!!

No, you just say things like this...

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sun Feb 19, 2023 10:53 pm (according to my sage) atheists continue to be reborn into stupid, silly, shallow afterlives (they progress to be raised by atheists).

..and there you go above lacey, you just had to snip that from a conversation I was having with Dubious and paste just my comment, where I was actually taking the piss out Dubious asinine statement..as below to put it back into context. All you ever do in conversations with me is to try and stir me up...just look for ways to have a petty argument.

HERE back in context:

attofishpi wrote:

Dubious wrote: ↑Sun Feb 19, 2023 10:38 pm Belief in a soul is not something preempted to an atheist, the difference being, he doesn't carry it across the boundaries of the living into some stupid, silly, shallow afterlife.

Ah. The irony is that actually, (according to my sage) atheists continue to be reborn into stupid, silly, shallow afterlives (they progress to be raised by atheists).

Lacewing wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 6:04 pm

attofishpi wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 9:50 am what do you believe regarding 'soul'? Do you think you have one, and do you have any belief in reincarnation?

I think the concept of a soul tends to be yet another human idea/belief in individuality that lives on, and no I don't believe in that (personally). I know there are compelling cases for reincarnation but it seems to me that they might just as easily be explained by an interconnected, whole web of energy that we're all part of. In other words, we might all have access to memories of, or tap into being, an ancient temple priestess or some other 'past' figure... or anything else. We might all be part of everything.

When I refer to my 'soul' (e.g. "I feel it in my soul"), I'm talking about the depth or wholeness of my human self. When this body dies, I don't think there will be a use for all of the ideas that were associated with this world. Rather, it might be a different kind of awareness and creative potential not associated with a specific individual.

So at the outset you state you don't believe in a soul, and then go on to state your concept of reincarnation being an interconnected whole web of energy (something I agree with) and in you last statement you state that your soul when you state the word is the wholeness of your human self.

You first statement re no belief in a soul is contradicted by your latter statements.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 1:51 am

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 12:41 am

Dubious wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 11:44 pm

Ionized particles of your former self; a ghost that want's a body. I'm absolutely certain of that. There's a picture of me in an intermediate state after I died, before being reborn again. It looked completely featureless and really lonely since nothing could mold or touch it before it became physical once again...an agent of the senses.

So here I am, intentionally writing a bunch of BS on a BS thread which theoretically has no ending because there is no conclusion to end it, except the real one: it's all bunk!

Crap. I guess no 70 virgins then. So what's up next for entertainment? Bingo?

Why on Earth would you want 70 virgins? I'd prefer 70 sluts.

That's a good point. I don't think I've ever really grasped the beauty of the virgin thing either.

Dubious wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 1:07 am

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 12:41 am

Dubious wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 11:44 pm

Ionized particles of your former self; a ghost that want's a body. I'm absolutely certain of that. There's a picture of me in an intermediate state after I died, before being reborn again. It looked completely featureless and really lonely since nothing could mold or touch it before it became physical once again...an agent of the senses.

So here I am, intentionally writing a bunch of BS on a BS thread which theoretically has no ending because there is no conclusion to end it, except the real one: it's all bunk!

Crap. I guess no 70 virgins then. So what's up next for entertainment? Bingo?

Isn't that what philosophy forums are for! Think of all the variety you're getting being both spectator and participant!

Well, I'm not getting any nookie so I was hoping for something more as a consolation prize.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 2:02 am

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 1:51 am

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 12:41 am

Crap. I guess no 70 virgins then. So what's up next for entertainment? Bingo?

Why on Earth would you want 70 virgins? I'd prefer 70 sluts.

That's a good point. I don't think I've ever really grasped the beauty of the virgin thing either.

Well I've said it before on the forum. I suppose you could train a couple of them, and put them in charge of training the rest of the multitudes.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 2:06 am

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 2:02 am

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 1:51 am

Why on Earth would you want 70 virgins? I'd prefer 70 sluts.

That's a good point. I don't think I've ever really grasped the beauty of the virgin thing either.

Well I've said it before on the forum. I suppose you could train a couple of them, and put them in charge of training the rest of the multitudes.

That sounds to me like a noble duty to the rest of us. I don't care how much they make, they'd still be underpaid considering such a venereal service (or is that venerable service?)!