Philosophy Now Forum

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 7:24 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 3:27 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 11:52 am

So in what way am i supposed to take Hell more seriously??

You can only make that statement if you think you know what Hell is. So tell us, oh great one!

I claim no arcane knowledge. The Biblical record is sufficient to convince one that Hell is no laughing matter...and that this life decidedly lacks its central characteristics.

For one thing, if you and I were in Hell, we would not be having this discussion.

An out of date fairy story written by semi literate goat herders. Oooooooooooooooooh I am scared!

it never gets old, this story, must have been the greatest story ever told. I think we should stop clinging onto it for dear life and let it have its freedom…poor thing has been flogged to death, and yet still refuses to die.

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 11:49 am My father would have been the first to joke about his own death, as I do mine.

When people are afraid of something they joke about it… (people are afraid of what they do not understand)

Better try to understand what life and death are - and to whom they actually happen… once you do, joking about it is not necessary anymore.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 3:21 pm No, there's no "point" at which an argument fails merely because of the person who spoke it. That actually never logically is entailed.

Dubious wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 10:36 am I never said that an argument fails because of the person who spoke it. That would be absurd. However it proves once again why any ad hominem used to describe you ceases to be that and becomes in fact a truth statement.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 3:21 pm But let us suppose it is a "truth statement," as you say. If so, it's only a truth about the speaker, not a truth about his/her utterance on a given occasion. And often, it's not even really even that.

If its only a truth about the speaker then there must be a reason why it is true. Your very many posts proclaim the why's in profusion.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 3:21 pm Nevertheless, if I claim, "Dubious is a liar" that does not inform anybody about whether or not Dubious's claims "Dragons are real," or "The number 2 is one more than 1" are true or false. It's just irrelevant for me to impugn his character -- at best, it's a distraction to throw of observers from the quality of whatever it is he said.

This statement is as pathetic and inapplicable to any kind of logic as believing that Jesus is going to save your soul simply because you believe in him...whatever that means! It's the kind of response, not withstanding its inherent idiocy, meant only to mislead as usual.

Remember when I asked you what happens to all the other people who, though also religious, do not believe in Jesus. Would they also be damned? I made very sure not to insult you in any way knowing you would use that as an excuse to avoid the question. Instead, you said I insulted god as an excuse to forgo any response in spite of affirming you have three comments to that question.

So again, what prevents you from showing us how ingenious you are in supplying at least one!

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:59 pm All I want is for the pain, and suffering in the world to stop. Especially the suffering of animals, but how can we make it stop, we can’t can we?

I just want it all to stop.

As I see it, all you can do, is to make the pain stop inside yourself (by understanding who suffers and what causes suffering) - that is good enough.
There is no need to heal the world, only heal yourself.
Its like being in an aeroplane - you are in an emergency - the oxygen masks drop out of the ceiling - you FIRST put a mask on yourself. Once this has been accomplished, then ask the question if the world still needs healing - and if so, how you can work towards this goal without adding further suffering to the world (as all suffering is internal - within thought - also your own internal suffering adds to the suffering of the world)
Also, don't mistake physical pain for suffering: pain is unavoidable, suffering is optional.

Dubious wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 11:29 pm If its only a truth about the speaker then there must be a reason why it is true.

The point is simple: true or not, it's entirely irrelevant to the truthfulness of the argument/opinion/information in question.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 3:41 pm

Age wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 3:40 pm

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 3:06 pm
Stop lying and twisting points around to suit your own agenda, the agenda where you attempt to make others feel like they do not know what they are talking about.

If ANY one feels this way, then I suggesting asking WHY?

Do I REALLY have that MUCH CONTROL over 'you' or "others"?

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 3:06 pm So you constantly info bomb them with your endless diatribe full of pointless bamboozle.

If that is what you OBSERVE and SEE, then there are things called CLARIFYING, and CLARITY, which completely and utterly OVERRIDE this.

Yes that is what is seen.

As I was saying, if you SEE pointlessness, and ARE bamboozled, then CLARIFYING, and CLARITY, will OVERRIDE this, FULLY. But, if you do NOT want to gain CLARITY, then you will just stay as you ARE.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 4:18 pm 91BE02E6-155C-45BE-BAAD-90B327F77FDE.png
this thread, like many others, isn't really about religion or god

This is because 'you', people, either BELIEVE 'God does exist', or, BELIEVE 'God does not exist'. And, either LOVE religion, or, HATE religion. So, these people are NOT able to have a Truly OPEN, answer finding, peaceful DISCUSSION.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:20 pm

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 4:17 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 4:06 pm
I have no idea what you're talking about there. I'm not imposing anything on anyone.

But whaddever.

No, you wouldn’t understand that would you...

Well, it's not clear.

I found it VERY CLEAR.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:20 pm Do you mean you hate life? All life? Even the lives of children? I can't think that's what you mean...so I'm waiting to hear what you do mean.

It is REFRESHING to SEE CLARIFYING QUESTIONS.

Now, let us hope we also get to SEE CLARIFYING ANSWERS.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:20 pm But I can see you're unhappy with me, though I still don't really know why. So I won't ask again.

You will NOT ask BECAUSE you, instinctively, KNOW you WILL HATE the answer.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:21 pm

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 4:18 pm 91BE02E6-155C-45BE-BAAD-90B327F77FDE.png
this thread, like many others, isn't really about religion or god

Yeh. The irony, of course, is that if morality is subjective, there's no such thing as a "bad" person. There's only "another" person -- regardless of what they do, so long as "subjectively" they're fine with it.

Look, "immanuel can", OBVIOUSLY does NOT consciously KNOW what is Right and what is Wrong in Life, so "immanuel can" also OBVIOUSLY has absolutely NO idea whether morality is subjective or not.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:23 pm

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:01 pm

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 4:58 pm

I do.

Ok, so what! So do I. *Got a problem with that.

*Yep. I gotta a large problem with liars. And, no, your lunacy doesn't exempt you. So: as I like, I will oppose you and miseries like you. I have no interest in savin' your soul (that's between you and the Creator): but I will meet your garbage with truth at every turn. You're a bad person and you should be countered.

How do 'you', "henry quirk", KNOW what the 'truth' IS, while the rest do NOT?

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:23 pm Or, mebbe, I'll just stick you in the penalty box along with age, the equally loony, and mick, the equally bad, (cuz, mebbe, you just aren't worth the trouble).

We'll see.

'nuff said for now.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:25 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:21 pm

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 4:18 pm 91BE02E6-155C-45BE-BAAD-90B327F77FDE.png
this thread, like many others, isn't really about religion or god

Yeh. The irony, of course, is that if morality is subjective, there's no such thing as a "bad" person. There's only "another" person -- regardless of what they do, so long as "subjectively" they're fine with it.

Yeah, this place stinks of it.

Here we have one who BELIEVES God exists, YET also BELIEVES that it SUBJECTIVELY and PERSONALLY has the RIGHT to KILL ANY one, who just touches ANY thing, which it BELIEVES it OWNS, for example.

The HYPOCRISY and CONTRADICTION here is BLINDING.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 11:40 pm

Dubious wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 11:29 pm If its only a truth about the speaker then there must be a reason why it is true.

The point is simple: true or not, it's entirely irrelevant to the truthfulness of the argument/opinion/information in question.

No doubt that's what you believe and technically you're right...again, up to a point. But if it's within the nature of one's character to obfuscate, distort and completely ignore valid questions as you've done through all through your prolific posts and continue to in spite of being told by many then obviously, by any criteria, the speaker has a major credibility gap in whatever he or she says.

If debate is a type of mental sport and sports invariably have rules, you would be disqualified from any supervised debate in the first 15 minutes.

Again I noticed there is no reply to the question posed; what is the fate of the religious of the world whose version of divinity or exceptionality may incorporate Jesus as only one instance of such an entity? Hinduism or Islam for instance. Even Buddhism, which is more a philosophy of redemption than a true religion.

Can't blame you for not responding. There is no logic to justify your conviction that only belief in Jesus can save. To counter that is nearly impossible without yielding to the belief that any such belief itself is absurd...in which case there is no argument; all duplicity no-longer necessary.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:40 pm

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:25 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:21 pm

Yeh. The irony, of course, is that if morality is subjective, there's no such thing as a "bad" person. There's only "another" person -- regardless of what they do, so long as "subjectively" they're fine with it.

Yeah, this place stinks of it.

Well, I've said this before, but I think it's really true here. There are two basic suppositions that most people are carrying around today:

1. Truth and morality are merely subjective language games.

2. The real game in town is seizing the initiative, the high ground, the appearance of goodness and the de-facto power in any situation, and language games are the way we do it.

The word 'suppositions' says all that REALLY needs to be SAID and EXPLAINED here. That is; 'you', adult human beings, here, in the days when this was written, have BELIEFS held without proof or certain knowledge; which are just ASSUMPTIONS, HYPOTHESIZES, or GUESSES anyway.

Although there is NOT one of 'you' who is ACTUALLY Right, 'you' ALL, laughing. BELIEVE 'you' ARE.

So, for the one's who talk about the entertaining factor being displayed here, in this forum, 'we' SEE this EXACTLY in what 'you', literally, talk about.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:40 pm So there's no means of arbitrating disputes, no common basis of agreement.

Which EXPLAINS WHY 'you' are ALL in the MESS that you are IN, and which 'you' ARE CREATING for "yourselves".

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:40 pm On the one hand, there are some who still those who believe in objective morality and actual truth, but they are unable to formulate the kinds of arguments that are persuasive to people who,

Well just formulate a sound AND valid argument, then there is NO one EVER who could refute it, and therefore you would 'persuade' EVERY one.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:40 pm on the other hand, have already abandoned both and now believe it's all about power.

LOL Talk about PROJECTION.

It is 'you', "immanuel can", who BELIEVE this.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:40 pm Because really, NO argument can be persuasive to somebody who thinks we're just playing power games: there's only win and loss of power; and things like truth-language and morality-language are nothing other than the tools of the power game.

And, has I have ALREADY EXPLAINED, 'you', human beings, will NEVER SEE what thee ACTUAL Truth of things IS while you HOLD ONTO and MAINTAIN those BELIEFS, which you CLEARLY KEEP and will NOT 'let go of'.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:40 pm

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:25 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:21 pm

Yeh. The irony, of course, is that if morality is subjective, there's no such thing as a "bad" person. There's only "another" person -- regardless of what they do, so long as "subjectively" they're fine with it.

Yeah, this place stinks of it.

Well, I've said this before, but I think it's really true here. There are two basic suppositions that most people are carrying around today:

1. Truth and morality are merely subjective language games.

2. The real game in town is seizing the initiative, the high ground, the appearance of goodness and the de-facto power in any situation, and language games are the way we do it.

So there's no means of arbitrating disputes, no common basis of agreement. On the one hand, there are some who still those who believe in objective morality and actual truth, but they are unable to formulate the kinds of arguments that are persuasive to people who, on the other hand, have already abandoned both and now believe it's all about power. Because really, NO argument can be persuasive to somebody who thinks we're just playing power games: there's only win and loss of power; and things like truth-language and morality-language are nothing other than the tools of the power game.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:50 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:20 pm

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 4:17 pm

No, you wouldn’t understand that would you...

Well, it's not clear.

Do you mean you hate life? All life? Even the lives of children? I can't think that's what you mean...so I'm waiting to hear what you do mean.

But I can see you're unhappy with me, though I still don't really know why. So I won't ask again.

I’m not unhappy with you IC

I hate the idea that we have to be born just to suffer the effects of what it means to be a sentient feeling creature.

I hate that we have to suffer, that’s all.

IF 'you' are STILL 'suffering', in the adult stage of being human life, then 'you' have NOT had the opportunity to grow and mature PROPERLY and CORRECTLY. So, do NOT blame Life, Itself, for this. The reason for this is BECAUSE of adult human beings.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:40 pm You’ve asked me what I meant, so thanks for that. I do not believe an intelligent caring loving god would want to make sentient life knowing that part of the deal is pain and suffering…

BUT thee intelligent, caring, and loving Being, sometimes known as God, did NOT 'make sentient life'. The physically seen Universe, sometimes also known as God, 'makes sentient life'. Physical matter moving about FREELY, forming the shapes and bodies that they do, do NOT know ANY thing. They just have happened to form into the shape of the human body, which comes with it nerve endings and senses.

Thee Truly Intelligent, Caring, and Loving Being UNDERSTANDS this, and ALL else, FULLY.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:40 pm I’ve spoken to you about this before. It’s only logical that there is no such thing as a creator god, simply because of the evil, suffering and pain that is life for sentient beings.

Statements like these EXPLAINS WHY 'you', human beings, in the days when this is being written, are STILL SO LOST and SO CONFUSED.

The Creator, which creates physical sentient bodies, is NOT, and I repeat, IS NOT, the same Creator as the One that is Intelligent, Loving, Caring, AND ALL Knowing.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:40 pm It rips my heart out when I see suffering of wild animals , that rips me apart, I just hate that nature is making all this happen.

Well that is just 'your' OWN individual and personal view of things. And, 'you' ONLY LOOK AT and SEE thing this way just because of what that body has Previously Experienced, which ALSO EXPLAINS WHY 'you' STILL do NOT YET FULLY UNDERSTAND what thee ACTUAL Truth of things IS.

ALL of 'you', wild animals, ONLY exist, in the way, shape, and form that 'you' ARE, SOLELY BECAUSE of the way Nature, Itself, IS. So, to ENVISION Nature, Itself, is "cruel" is to COMPLETELY IGNORE that this is the way Nature WORKS, and that there is absolutely NOTHING that 'you' can do now, when this is written, to CHANGE 'that'.

Nature WILL 'make ALL this happen', whether 'you' HATE or LOVE 'this happening'.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:40 pm It’s weird but I’ve always been able to sense that you are a decent person, I don’t know how or why I feel that way.

Could it be because of the way 'it' TALKS?

What other 'sense' could 'you' USE here?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:40 pm I’m really glad you are on this forum, you calm me.
I’m a decent person too…but the pain of the world makes me bitter.

What PAIN?

The ONLY 'pain' there is, is in the nerve endings of sentient bodies. If 'you' become "bitter", for ANY reason, then that is BECAUSE of your OWN MAKING and your OWN CHOOSING. I suggest NOT blaming some thing else for what 'you' CHOOSE to do. Doing that will NEVER help 'you' to grow AND mature, properly AND correctly.