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Re: Time does not exist.

Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2016 4:27 am
by prothero
Terrapin Station wrote:]I'd agree that everything is in motion relative to other things, but I wouldn't say that matter is "just process," as I think the idea of that is incoherent. "Process" is simply a term for relative motions, after all. Something has to be moving. It can't be "motion all the way down."
I quess the point to consider, is what is matter made of? Atoms? What are atoms made of? Subatomic particles or quantum particles. What is the nature of quantum particles in quantum field theory, essentially they are waves or energetic excitations in the fields. What quantum particles are not, is anything like our traditional notions of particles as well defined in time and space and possessing inherent properties. I don't claim to fully understand the issue of "particles" in "QFT" but one can easily understand such particles as processes in the field rather than anything like our traditional notion of matter. So in some sense it is excitations or disturbances in the space time filed more like a process than a traditonal particle. In our universe, flux is a more fundamental feature than permanence and thus if time is change, time is a fundamental feature and reality is really a process (process philosophy).

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q ... rLA2oSLCrA

The concept of particle in Quantum Field Theory
Eliano Pessa*

Despite its name, Quantum Field Theory (QFT) has been built to describe interactions between localizable particles. For this reason the actual formalism of QFT is partly based on a suitable generalization of the one already used for systems of point particles. This circumstance gives rise to a number of conceptual problems, stemming essentially from the fact that the existence within QFT of non-equivalent representations implies the existence of field theories allowing, within the same theory, different, inequivalent, descriptions of particles. This led some authors to claim that in QFT the concept itself of particle should be abandoned.

After this complicated trip in the endless field of theoretical physics, we still are in a state of uncertainty. The naïve concept of particle, adopted by most practitioners of QFT, evidences intrinsic contradictions and therefore should be abandoned. This in turn implies a deep reformulation of the whole apparatus of QFT. In this regard, however, all proposals so far made are plagued by serious shortcomings which, so far, prevents from the introduction of a new, and more firmly grounded, concept of particle. It seems, after all, that we do not need a rigorous definition of the latter. QFT can work and produce acceptable previsions even in absence of it. Nevertheless, from a practical point of view, we need to summarize a number of experimental facts and theoretical features by introducing the concept of particle which, undoubtedly, allows more economical descriptions and more easily understandable pictures of dynamical phenomenology. Within this context, we can be satisfied with a definition of particle as a construct having a citizenship within an effective field theory, more or less like quasi-particles. As such, this construct must necessarily be endowed with dynamical features, which were absent in the old models of pointlike particles. Of course, the technical ingredients needed to introduce the new “effective” definition of particle are still incomplete and lot of work is necessary before obtaining significant advances along this direction. While this situation is satisfactory for most physicists, we acknowledge that it could be embarrassing for those searching for the “fundamental particles”. However, nobody prevents from thinking that, at very high energy, the “effective” description of particles will reduce to the one of (almost) pointlike particles. And most actual efforts of theoretical as well as experimental physicists try just to prove the validity of this hypothesis. The ones which will remain unsatisfied for this state of affairs are the philosophers (or at least some of them). Namely the solution we have sketched above entails the disappearance of the haecceitas of particles, which are reduced to mere auxiliary constructs, useful for practical purposes, but in turn making reference to deeper constructs. For these philosophers the problem now becomes: what are these constructs? Do they coincide with fields? In this regard there are already some indications about a possible negative answer to this question (Teller, 1990; 1995). Perhaps, as suggested by Cao (see, Cao, 1997; 1999), the best ontological basis for QFT is given by its structure itself (inextricably connected with the processes it describes) rather than by specific entities (particles or fields).

Re: Time does not exist.

Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2016 10:11 am
by Belinda
Terrapin Station wrote:
Belinda wrote:Time doesn't exist like atoms and other items exist. Time underwrites existence itself: time is the condition of change.
It's a process of matter, not matter itself in other words.
Well said Terrapin Station. :)

Re: Time does not exist.

Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2016 10:15 am
by HexHammer
Terrapin Station wrote:
HexHammer wrote:time is the condition of change
It is (the ontological process of) change. That's an identity statement.
What relevance does Belanda's and your statement have? Can it be used by phicis or just cozy chat?

Re: Time does not exist.

Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2016 10:35 am
by Belinda
HexHammer wrote:
Terrapin Station wrote:
HexHammer wrote:time is the condition of change
It is (the ontological process of) change. That's an identity statement.
What relevance does Belanda's and your statement have? Can it be used by phicis or just cozy chat?

The cash value of time= change and change=time is that nothing is essentially predictable because everything changes. One example of change-time is entropy. Another example is the process of learning. Change-time applies also to the sad transience of life events and stages. Those three are all examples of change-time and how it underlies our lives as we live them.

Re: Time does not exist.

Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2016 11:44 am
by Terrapin Station
prothero wrote:I quess the point to consider, is what is matter made of? Atoms? What are atoms made of? Subatomic particles or quantum particles. What is the nature of quantum particles in quantum field theory, essentially they are waves or energetic excitations in the fields. What quantum particles are not, is anything like our traditional notions of particles as well defined in time and space and possessing inherent properties . . .
I don't agree with that as ontology.

It's fine as an instrumental construction with practical utility, and as such, it's largely a mathematical construction (where I think it's very important to not take mathematical constructions as making ontological commitments), but from an ontological perspective, it can't be "all process" and not involve something that processes are occuring "to," so to speak, because that's logically incoherent.

Re: Time does not exist.

Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2016 11:45 am
by Terrapin Station
HexHammer wrote:
Terrapin Station wrote:
HexHammer wrote:time is the condition of change
It is (the ontological process of) change. That's an identity statement.
What relevance does Belanda's and your statement have?
It's relevant to what the world is like, to ontological truth.

Re: Time does not exist.

Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2016 12:59 pm
by HexHammer
Belinda wrote:
HexHammer wrote:
Terrapin Station wrote:It is (the ontological process of) change. That's an identity statement.
What relevance does Belanda's and your statement have? Can it be used by phicis or just cozy chat?

The cash value of time= change and change=time is that nothing is essentially predictable because everything changes. One example of change-time is entropy. Another example is the process of learning. Change-time applies also to the sad transience of life events and stages. Those three are all examples of change-time and how it underlies our lives as we live them.
This is pure nonsense and babble! You claim to have read SRT, but there's NO SRT to be found if your nonsense and babble!

This is completely absurd!

Re: Time does not exist.

Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2016 1:01 pm
by HexHammer
Terrapin Station wrote:
HexHammer wrote:
Terrapin Station wrote:It is (the ontological process of) change. That's an identity statement.
What relevance does Belanda's and your statement have?
It's relevant to what the world is like, to ontological truth.
This has no relevance, else you could easily earn money off it, you have no idea what you are talking about, as usual.

You should try get out of this silly delusion!

Re: Time does not exist.

Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2016 1:16 pm
by Terrapin Station
HexHammer wrote:
Terrapin Station wrote:
HexHammer wrote:What relevance does Belanda's and your statement have?
It's relevant to what the world is like, to ontological truth.
This has no relevance
I just told you what the relevance is. Relevance, in general, by the way, is simply how one thing is related to something else, what one thing has to do with something else. "Time is motion or (the ontological process of) change" is related to what the world is like, it's related to accurate statements about ontology.

"Relevance" has no necessary relevance to earning money from something.

Re: Time does not exist.

Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2016 2:16 pm
by HexHammer
Terrapin Station wrote:
HexHammer wrote:
Terrapin Station wrote:It's relevant to what the world is like, to ontological truth.
This has no relevance
I just told you what the relevance is. Relevance, in general, by the way, is simply how one thing is related to something else, what one thing has to do with something else. "Time is motion or (the ontological process of) change" is related to what the world is like, it's related to accurate statements about ontology.

"Relevance" has no necessary relevance to earning money from something.
You are diluded, what you practise is an oudated form of philosphy. The only relevance it has, is entertaining cozy chatters like a dog will chase it's own tail.

Re: Time does not exist.

Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2016 3:49 pm
by Terrapin Station
HexHammer wrote:You are diluded
Is that like when you're deluded, only not so much? (a diluted form of being deluded?)
what you practise is an oudated form of philosphy
Which shows that you don't even really understand what philosophy is. Good thing you're a proselytizing, "expert" regular on a board dedicated to the subject.

Re: Time does not exist.

Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2016 6:17 pm
by HexHammer
Terrapin Station wrote:
HexHammer wrote:You are diluded
Is that like when you're deluded, only not so much? (a diluted form of being deluded?)
what you practise is an oudated form of philosphy
Which shows that you don't even really understand what philosophy is. Good thing you're a proselytizing, "expert" regular on a board dedicated to the subject.
Thanks for grammar lesson!

The basic guiding principle of philosophy is "love of wisdom", when something doesn't carry any wisdom, it's no longer philosophy and is outdated!

Re: Time does not exist.

Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2016 8:48 pm
by Terrapin Station
HexHammer wrote:Thanks for grammar lesson!
Er, spelling. Yeah, no problem.
The basic guiding principle of philosophy is "love of wisdom"
No, that's just the etymological source of the term. It's not a "guiding principle," and it doesn't make sense as a definition of philosophy, either.

Re: Time does not exist.

Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2016 8:50 pm
by HexHammer
Terrapin Station wrote:
HexHammer wrote:The basic guiding principle of philosophy is "love of wisdom"
No, that's just the etymological source of the term. It's not a "guiding principle," and it doesn't make sense as a definition of philosophy, either.
So what you are really saying that you guys practise "love of stupidity" ..that's ok with me.

Re: Time does not exist.

Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2016 8:52 pm
by Terrapin Station
HexHammer wrote:
Terrapin Station wrote:
HexHammer wrote:The basic guiding principle of philosophy is "love of wisdom"
No, that's just the etymological source of the term. It's not a "guiding principle," and it doesn't make sense as a definition of philosophy, either.
So what you are really saying that you guys practise "love of stupidity" ..that's ok with me.
You might call that a false dyechotomy. (I wouldn't, though--I'd call it a false dichotomy.)