Philosophy Now Forum

Posted: **Wed Feb 05, 2025 8:13 pm**

I think different people mean different things with the word “determinism”.

In one sense determinism is supported by intuitive, common-sense reason. So there is that. Something careening through space cannot self-choose to alter course. (This is I think Mike’s view).

I have thought at times that Mike seems to be saying “What happens in time depends on what just happened”, and since no one exists outside of time (time’s unfolding) no one can say they are not determined.

One thing depends on the previous thing.

There’s the other part: the denial of (whatever one means by) God or something supernatural to all that has come about as being 1) unprovable and 2) fantasy or hallucination.

… and certainly to any event or occurrence that seems to, or is said to, have occurred acausally. I.e. causal factors resulting, say, from prayer or perhaps from something skin to “magic”.

The notion of an acausal connecting principle … is conceptually inconceivable.

Yet people do try to bend physics concepts to support such a notion (popular interpretations of non-classical mechanics).

But there are people who are certain beyond all certainty that the question of intervention in •determined• chains of causation —through some activity that is non-physical like thought, or prayer, and even will — is (for them) proved.

Yet there is one type of mind (so-called rationally-grounded) that simply cannot conceive or allow this is possible.

Mike is such a one. But there is a hidden (not revealed) side to Mike: how he used to think and what he used to believe, and what he now acutely disbelieves.

And that furious ressentiment against those who are still in their child-phase and will not grow up to see things “as they really are”.

Et cetera et cetera …

Posted: **Wed Feb 05, 2025 8:20 pm**

Skepdick wrote: ↑Wed Feb 05, 2025 8:07 pm
Atla wrote: ↑Wed Feb 05, 2025 7:53 pm Science, for example without determinism this forum wouldn't work.
How have you determined that?

Atla wrote: ↑Wed Feb 05, 2025 7:53 pm How have you determined that it isn't sound?
How have you determined that it is sound?

Science. The forum you're commenting on and your computer and the internet were built based on the deterministic laws of physics. They work as expected, so determinism works. If you have an issue with determinism then don't use the internet.

Posted: **Wed Feb 05, 2025 8:30 pm**

Atla wrote: ↑Wed Feb 05, 2025 8:20 pm Science. The forum you're commenting on and your computer and the internet were built based on the deterministic laws of physics. They work as expected, so determinism works. If you have an issue with determinism then don't use the internet.

That's weird... the laws of physics are non-deterministic.

You seem to be conflating the electrical engineering which produces the illusion of determinism from a non-deterministic substrate; for determinism.

I'd explain it to you, but you don't seem to know anything about engineering. Or physics.

Posted: **Wed Feb 05, 2025 8:31 pm**

Skepdick wrote: ↑Wed Feb 05, 2025 8:30 pm
Atla wrote: ↑Wed Feb 05, 2025 8:20 pm Science. The forum you're commenting on and your computer and the internet were built based on the deterministic laws of physics. They work as expected, so determinism works. If you have an issue with determinism then don't use the internet.
That's weird... the laws of physics are non-deterministic.

You seem to be conflating the electrical engineering which produces the illusion of determinism from a non-deterministic substrate; for determinism.

I'd explain it to you, but you don't seem to know anything about engineering. Or physics.

Oh please go on, don't be shy

Posted: **Wed Feb 05, 2025 8:34 pm**

Atla wrote: ↑Wed Feb 05, 2025 8:31 pm Oh please go on, don't be shy

Not shy at all... why don't you explain to us why we need so much error-detecting/error-correcting software and hardware in this "deterministic" system?

What would an "error" even amount to in a deterministic universe?
Why would we even need Hamming codes?

Posted: **Wed Feb 05, 2025 8:46 pm**

Skepdick wrote: ↑Wed Feb 05, 2025 8:34 pm
Atla wrote: ↑Wed Feb 05, 2025 8:31 pm Oh please go on, don't be shy
Not shy at all... why don't you explain to us why we need so much error-detecting/error-correcting software and hardware in this "deterministic" system?

What would an "error" even amount to in a deterministic universe?
Why would we even need Hamming codes?

Because of deterministically occuring hardware failures caused by cosmic rays, manufacturing errors, aging, EM interference etc., why else? If determinism wasn't the case, there would be nothing in the first place that could be made error-free.

Uh, someone else?

Posted: **Wed Feb 05, 2025 8:53 pm**

Atla wrote: ↑Wed Feb 05, 2025 8:46 pm
Skepdick wrote: ↑Wed Feb 05, 2025 8:34 pm
Atla wrote: ↑Wed Feb 05, 2025 8:31 pm Oh please go on, don't be shy
Not shy at all... why don't you explain to us why we need so much error-detecting/error-correcting software and hardware in this "deterministic" system?

What would an "error" even amount to in a deterministic universe?
Why would we even need Hamming codes?
Because of deterministically occuring hardware failures caused by cosmic rays, manufacturing errors, aging, EM interference etc., why else? If determinism wasn't the case, there would be nothing in the first place that could be made error-free.

Uh, someone else?

Well, you are dumber than a chatbot...

Question: What do modern computers need Hamming codes for?
Would we still need them if the universe were truly deterministic?

ChatGPT said:
Modern computers use Hamming codes primarily for error detection and correction in data transmission and storage. These codes help protect information from corruption due to noise, hardware faults, or interference, especially in the following areas:

Memory (RAM and ECC RAM): Many high-reliability computing systems use Error-Correcting Code (ECC) memory, which often employs Hamming codes (or extended versions) to detect and correct single-bit errors in stored data.
Data Transmission: Communication protocols, such as satellite communications, networking, and deep-space probes, use error correction to mitigate noise and interference.
Storage Systems: Hard drives, SSDs, and RAID systems use variations of Hamming codes to maintain data integrity in the presence of physical degradation or read/write errors.
Processor Registers & Caches: Some high-performance CPUs use error-correcting codes to ensure reliable operation, particularly in extreme conditions (e.g., cosmic radiation affecting bits in space applications).
Would We Still Need Hamming Codes in a Truly Deterministic Universe?
If the universe were perfectly deterministic, there would be no random noise, hardware faults, or environmental interference. In such a scenario:

Cosmic radiation wouldn't flip bits unpredictably.
Hardware wouldn't degrade in an uncontrollable way.
No unexpected quantum effects would introduce uncertainty into circuits.
If computation itself were also deterministic at all levels, there would be no need for error correction because errors would never occur. Every process would proceed exactly as designed, assuming perfect hardware and manufacturing.

If everything were truly deterministic and flawless at every level, including all initial conditions and environmental factors, then Hamming codes would be unnecessary. The only reason we use them is because real-world systems experience unpredictable faults, often stemming from non-deterministic or chaotic influences.

Posted: **Wed Feb 05, 2025 9:01 pm**

Skepdick wrote: ↑Wed Feb 05, 2025 8:53 pm
Atla wrote: ↑Wed Feb 05, 2025 8:46 pm
Skepdick wrote: ↑Wed Feb 05, 2025 8:34 pm
Not shy at all... why don't you explain to us why we need so much error-detecting/error-correcting software and hardware in this "deterministic" system?

What would an "error" even amount to in a deterministic universe?
Why would we even need Hamming codes?
Because of deterministically occuring hardware failures caused by cosmic rays, manufacturing errors, aging, EM interference etc., why else? If determinism wasn't the case, there would be nothing in the first place that could be made error-free.

Uh, someone else?
Well, you are dumber than a chatbot...

Question: What do modern computers need Hamming codes for?
Would we still need them if the universe were truly deterministic?

ChatGPT said:
Modern computers use Hamming codes primarily for error detection and correction in data transmission and storage. These codes help protect information from corruption due to noise, hardware faults, or interference, especially in the following areas:

Memory (RAM and ECC RAM): Many high-reliability computing systems use Error-Correcting Code (ECC) memory, which often employs Hamming codes (or extended versions) to detect and correct single-bit errors in stored data.
Data Transmission: Communication protocols, such as satellite communications, networking, and deep-space probes, use error correction to mitigate noise and interference.
Storage Systems: Hard drives, SSDs, and RAID systems use variations of Hamming codes to maintain data integrity in the presence of physical degradation or read/write errors.
Processor Registers & Caches: Some high-performance CPUs use error-correcting codes to ensure reliable operation, particularly in extreme conditions (e.g., cosmic radiation affecting bits in space applications).
Would We Still Need Hamming Codes in a Truly Deterministic Universe?
If the universe were perfectly deterministic, there would be no random noise, hardware faults, or environmental interference. In such a scenario:

Cosmic radiation wouldn't flip bits unpredictably.
Hardware wouldn't degrade in an uncontrollable way.
No unexpected quantum effects would introduce uncertainty into circuits.
If computation itself were also deterministic at all levels, there would be no need for error correction because errors would never occur. Every process would proceed exactly as designed, assuming perfect hardware and manufacturing.

If everything were truly deterministic and flawless at every level, including all initial conditions and environmental factors, then Hamming codes would be unnecessary. The only reason we use them is because real-world systems experience unpredictable faults, often stemming from non-deterministic or chaotic influences.

You aren't very bright are you, that's why you hide behind a chatbot's wrong answer. It's entirely possible that the universe is 100% deterministic down to the quantum level, but that absolutely doesn't mean that we humans can perfectly predict it.

Posted: **Wed Feb 05, 2025 9:04 pm**

Atla wrote: ↑Wed Feb 05, 2025 9:01 pm You aren't very bright are you, that's why you hide behind a chatbot's wrong answer. It's entirely possible that the universe is 100% deterministic down to the quantum level, but that absolutely doesn't mean that we humans can perfectly predict it.

So how would you determine if it's true?

Posted: **Wed Feb 05, 2025 9:11 pm**

Skepdick wrote: ↑Wed Feb 05, 2025 9:04 pm
Atla wrote: ↑Wed Feb 05, 2025 9:01 pm You aren't very bright are you, that's why you hide behind a chatbot's wrong answer. It's entirely possible that the universe is 100% deterministic down to the quantum level, but that absolutely doesn't mean that we humans can perfectly predict it.
So how would you determine if it's true?

It's not possible for us to determine it. That's why QM has both determinist and indeterminist interpretations. To determine it you would at least have to be a god outside this universe, who has knowledge of absolutely everything in this universe.

However even so, QM is either deterministically random or deterministically apparently random, the Schrödinger equasion is "overall" deterministic. On the everyday scale the true randomness or apparent randomness isn't much relevant, and true randomness would have nothing to do with free will either.

Posted: **Wed Feb 05, 2025 9:12 pm**

Atla wrote: ↑Wed Feb 05, 2025 9:11 pm It's not possible for us to determine it.

Great... so you've assumed it sound.

Atla wrote: ↑Wed Feb 05, 2025 9:11 pm and true randomness would have nothing to do with free will either.

What? Like randomly choosing to believe in the truth; or falsity of determinism?

Posted: **Wed Feb 05, 2025 9:14 pm**

Skepdick wrote: ↑Wed Feb 05, 2025 9:12 pm
Atla wrote: ↑Wed Feb 05, 2025 9:11 pm It's not possible for us to determine it.
Great... so you've assumed it sound.

If you can't determine that determinism's sound that sounds like... non-determinism to me.

I see you skipped the rest. Of course determinism is sound.

Posted: **Wed Feb 05, 2025 9:16 pm**

Skepdick wrote: ↑Wed Feb 05, 2025 9:12 pm
Atla wrote: ↑Wed Feb 05, 2025 9:11 pm It's not possible for us to determine it.
Great... so you've assumed it sound.

Atla wrote: ↑Wed Feb 05, 2025 9:11 pm and true randomness would have nothing to do with free will either.
What? Like randomly choosing to believe in the truth; or falsity of determinism?

Randomly choosing is an oxymoron, genius.

Posted: **Wed Feb 05, 2025 9:20 pm**

Atla wrote: ↑Wed Feb 05, 2025 9:16 pm Randomly choosing is an oxymoron, genius.

It is? What's your choice-function then? Explain how you chose to believe that determinism's true.

Posted: **Wed Feb 05, 2025 9:21 pm**

Skepdick wrote: ↑Wed Feb 05, 2025 9:20 pm
Atla wrote: ↑Wed Feb 05, 2025 9:16 pm Randomly choosing is an oxymoron, genius.
It is? What's your choice-function then? Explain how you chose to believe that determinism's true.

You can't have a function made of randomness. That's an oxymoron.

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