"Atheists Killed >140 millions" is Fallacious

[Immanuel Can]

Mankind's confidence that they can "do it on our own" has been ultimately responsible for all the misery.

If you're bothered by people's expressions of free will, then go and bang your head against the wall.

It's not free will I'm bothered about at all. Free will is a great thing. It's sine qua non for responsibility, relationship, morality, freedom, identity, personhood...lots of good stuff.

What should concern us all is only the particular choices men make. They clearly aren't all good. And some are very, very bad indeed.

[Immanuel Can]

So, we reach to conclusion that I suggest: She was fooled.

Not from anything I've said, and not from anything Genesis says. But I don't doubt that you are keen on that "conclusion." It's so much more convenient than the truth.

It is quite logical if you think about it: She wouldn't eat the fruit if she was sure that she would die so the opposite is true, namely she was sure that she wouldn't die if she ate the fruit. That was what Serpent said which was a lie so she was fooled.

If one person tells you the truth, and one tells you a lie, are you fooled? That's up to you. Believe the person who's the truth-teller. Doubt the liar. That's the right choice. But don't blame anybody but yourself if you go the other way.

So no, it's not at all the logical conclusion.

[bahman]

Not from anything I've said, and not from anything Genesis says. But I don't doubt that you are keen on that "conclusion." It's so much more convenient than the truth.

It is quite logical if you think about it: She wouldn't eat the fruit if she was sure that she would die so the opposite is true, namely she was sure that she wouldn't die if she ate the fruit. That was what Serpent said which was a lie so she was fooled.

If one person tells you the truth, and one tells you a lie, are you fooled? That's up to you. Believe the person who's the truth-teller. Doubt the liar.

How could I know who is telling the truth and who lies!?

That's the right choice. But don't blame anybody but yourself if you go the other way.

So no, it's not at all the logical conclusion.

All we know is that she ate the fruit so she believed in Serpent and not God. This means that she was fooled.

[Immanuel Can]

How could I know who is telling the truth and who lies!?

When God tells you something, that's something you always can -- and should-- believe. And if you don't, then the fault only falls one side of that equation.

[bahman]

How could I know who is telling the truth and who lies!?

When God tells you something, that's something you always can -- and should-- believe. And if you don't, then the fault only falls one side of that equation.

Why should I believe that God is good in the first place? What if He was a deceiver? God Himself says that He creates evil Isa.45:3: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. How a good God could commit evil?

[Immanuel Can]

How could I know who is telling the truth and who lies!?

When God tells you something, that's something you always can -- and should-- believe. And if you don't, then the fault only falls one side of that equation.

Why should I believe that God is good in the first place?

Eve knew Him. She knew that every good thing she'd ever gotten came from Him. She knew He'd never done anything to her to make her think it would be otherwise. Yet she was prepared to believe a liar, and to doubt God's intentions toward her. But basically, her real motives are given in Genesis. See here:

"When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took some of its fruit and ate; and she also gave some to her husband with her, and he ate." (Gen. 3:6)

But let's pretend not to notice all of that except the last phrase. Adam never spoke to the Deceiver. If you doubt that Eve knew what she was doing, what's Adam's excuse?

[bahman]

When God tells you something, that's something you always can -- and should-- believe. And if you don't, then the fault only falls one side of that equation.

Why should I believe that God is good in the first place?

Eve knew Him. She knew that every good thing she'd ever gotten came from Him. She knew He'd never done anything to her to make her think it would be otherwise. Yet she was prepared to believe a liar, and to doubt God's intentions toward her. But basically, her real motives are given in Genesis. See here:

"When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took some of its fruit and ate; and she also gave some to her husband with her, and he ate." (Gen. 3:6)

And you are ignoring what the Serpent says. And you ignoring that God Himself said that He creates evil!

But let's pretend not to notice all of that except the last phrase. Adam never spoke to the Deceiver. If you doubt that Eve knew what she was doing, what's Adam's excuse?

Adam's has no excuse.

[Peter Kropotkin]

When God tells you something, that's something you always can -- and should-- believe. And if you don't, then the fault only falls one side of that equation.

Why should I believe that God is good in the first place?

Eve knew Him. She knew that every good thing she'd ever gotten came from Him. She knew He'd never done anything to her to make her think it would be otherwise. Yet she was prepared to believe a liar, and to doubt God's intentions toward her. But basically, her real motives are given in Genesis. See here:

"When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took some of its fruit and ate; and she also gave some to her husband with her, and he ate." (Gen. 3:6)

But let's pretend not to notice all of that except the last phrase. Adam never spoke to the Deceiver. If you doubt that Eve knew what she was doing, what's Adam's excuse?

K: as a long time married man, Adam was simply trying to do as he was told...
the best way to stay married a long time is to simply say, yes dear...and
do it.. whatever she says... just do it or face many nights on the couch...

PS, we have a very comfortable couch...

Kropotkin

[Immanuel Can]

Why should I believe that God is good in the first place?

Eve knew Him. She knew that every good thing she'd ever gotten came from Him. She knew He'd never done anything to her to make her think it would be otherwise. Yet she was prepared to believe a liar, and to doubt God's intentions toward her. But basically, her real motives are given in Genesis. See here:

"When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took some of its fruit and ate; and she also gave some to her husband with her, and he ate." (Gen. 3:6)

And you are ignoring what the Serpent says.

No, I'm not. The fact that somebody "says" something doesn't mean you have to believe it.

And you ignoring that God Himself said that He creates evil!

Show me that.

But let's pretend not to notice all of that except the last phrase. Adam never spoke to the Deceiver. If you doubt that Eve knew what she was doing, what's Adam's excuse?

Adam's has no excuse.
[/quote] Well, then, the very best you can say is that the "oops, I was fooled" excuse might work for Eve, if you believe that; it doesn't work for Adam. So we're back where we started, aren't we?

[nemos]

What should concern us all is only the particular choices men make.

I would like a more detailed explanation.
Who is the "we all", and what unites them all?
What exactly does it mean to concern, is there an action plan to solve the worry?

[bahman]

Eve knew Him. She knew that every good thing she'd ever gotten came from Him. She knew He'd never done anything to her to make her think it would be otherwise. Yet she was prepared to believe a liar, and to doubt God's intentions toward her. But basically, her real motives are given in Genesis. See here:

"When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took some of its fruit and ate; and she also gave some to her husband with her, and he ate." (Gen. 3:6)

And you are ignoring what the Serpent says.

No, I'm not. The fact that somebody "says" something doesn't mean you have to believe it.

She simply was convinced that what the Serpent said was true and not a lie otherwise she wouldn't eat the fruit. Could we agree on that?

And you ignoring that God Himself said that He creates evil!

Show me that.

Isaiah 45 : 7: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

But let's pretend not to notice all of that except the last phrase. Adam never spoke to the Deceiver. If you doubt that Eve knew what she was doing, what's Adam's excuse?

Adam's has no excuse.

Well, then, the very best you can say is that the "oops, I was fooled" excuse might work for Eve, if you believe that; it doesn't work for Adam. So we're back where we started, aren't we?

We are not where we started. Adam had no excuse. Eve had!

[Immanuel Can]

And you are ignoring what the Serpent says.

No, I'm not. The fact that somebody "says" something doesn't mean you have to believe it.

She simply was convinced that what the Serpent said was true and not a lie otherwise she wouldn't eat the fruit. Could we agree on that?

No, because it ignores what the Bible says was the case: namely, that she had her own reasons, as well, for what she did. And it matters not at all, since Adam didn't have anything like that excuse.

And you ignoring that God Himself said that He creates evil!

Show me that.

Isaiah 45 : 7: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Oh, I see...here we're going to get into how to read words in context again.

"Evil" has at least two different connotations: one is morally evil. That's what we've been talking about. But another is practically bad, like volcanoes, tidal waves, diseases, and other mishaps. Susan Neiman, the secular Jewish lady who is famous for studying such things, calls these "personal evil" and "natural evils." She says that a full account of theodicy requires us to deal with both -- and I think that's right. But when it comes to the Adam and Eve situation, we're not talking about "natural evils," but only "moral or personal evil." But that's a long discussion, and we can set it aside for the moment. What matters is that there is such a thing as "natural evils."

What Isaiah is saying, then is that the Lord decides whether we get good results or bad results in our lives; he's decidedly not saying that God creates moral evil.

Adam had no excuse. Eve had!

I don't think she did. The Bible doesn't suggest she did. It says the opposite. But then, if you like, you can pretend to think women have gotten a raw deal, maybe. I don't believe that's true, but you can believe it if you wish.

But where we can agree is this: you can't say the same of men. Adam made a choice. And even if you imagine, contrary to Scripture and to the truth of the case, that she didn't, that remains true. And we are all Adam's children, too.

[bahman]

No, I'm not. The fact that somebody "says" something doesn't mean you have to believe it.

She simply was convinced that what the Serpent said was true and not a lie otherwise she wouldn't eat the fruit. Could we agree on that?

No, because it ignores what the Bible says was the case: namely, that she had her own reasons, as well, for what she did. And it matters not at all, since Adam didn't have anything like that excuse.

The Bible does not say anything about whether she was fooled or not. I am arguing in favor of that she was fooled. My reasoning is simple: She as an intellectual creature wouldn't eat the fruit if she believed that she would die!

Show me that.

Isaiah 45 : 7: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Oh, I see...here we're going to get into how to read words in context again.

"Evil" has at least two different connotations: one is morally evil. That's what we've been talking about. But another is practically bad, like volcanoes, tidal waves, diseases, and other mishaps. Susan Neiman, the secular Jewish lady who is famous for studying such things, calls these "personal evil" and "natural evils." She says that a full account of theodicy requires us to deal with both -- and I think that's right. But when it comes to the Adam and Eve situation, we're not talking about "natural evils," but only "moral or personal evil." But that's a long discussion, and we can set it aside for the moment. What matters is that there is such a thing as "natural evils."

What Isaiah is saying, then is that the Lord decides whether we get good results or bad results in our lives; he's decidedly not saying that God creates moral evil.

How do you know that that verse refers to natural evil and not moral evil?

Adam had no excuse. Eve had!

I don't think she did. The Bible doesn't suggest she did. It says the opposite. But then, if you like, you can pretend to think women have gotten a raw deal, maybe. I don't believe that's true, but you can believe it if you wish.

But where we can agree is this: you can't say the same of men. Adam made a choice. And even if you imagine, contrary to Scripture and to the truth of the case, that she didn't, that remains true. And we are all Adam's children, too.

How do you know that we are Adam's children? Do you have any evidence from what the Bible says?

[Age]

I'm not sure whom you mean by "they." Do you mean mankind? ...

Of course, I'm still talking about Adam and Eve, who should be 100% guilty even though you can discuss about them now... Because if they had stayed close to god, then you wouldn't be there either...

That's very likely true. But we don't know, because they didn't do that. If they had, there's perhaps no reason for the human race ever to have become fallen...or maybe a later person might have made the same mistake...it's impossible to speculate. However, this we do know: what they did, you and I have also done. We've confirmed their bad choice in our own case, repeatedly, through our own choices. We also turned to our own way, and rejected God. So Adam and Eve have 100% responsibility for their choice, and we have an equal responsibility for our own choices.

So, why do you think or imagine you, "immanuel can" keep continually rejecting God and keep turning to your own way?

Find out the actual True answer to this question, then you will be near on half way to help in the creation of 'the world', which is soon to be-come.

Hence the need for salvation for all of us.

you human beings need salvation 'from' "yourselves", not just 'for' "yourselves".

[Immanuel Can]

The Bible does not say anything about whether she was fooled or not.

I quoted it. If you can't read it, I can't do much about that.

How do you know that that verse refers to natural evil and not moral evil?

I said that: context.

How do you know that we are Adam's children?

Who else's?