Philosophy Now Forum

Fuck Scottish football.

Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Sun Dec 10, 2023 12:24 pm

accelafine wrote: ↑Sun Dec 10, 2023 12:09 pm If those wankers at the pro Hamas Nuremburg-style rallies in London really 'care' about Gazans so much, then why aren't there any signs saying 'Release the hostages'? Release them and the ceasefire they are allegedly so 'desperate' for will happen. Seems pretty straightforward to me.
Could it be that they don't actually 'care' at all?

I think the fact is, most people accept that Hamas cares less for Gazans lives than even Israel does, so nobody bothers making any demands of them to begin with.

Possibly. That would be a reasonable thing for them to think.

But then, why do people in the Western world go about tearing down the posters of the victims? It's almost like they hate them for being Jews, and want to see them stay as hostages to Hamas...

Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Sun Dec 10, 2023 12:24 pm I think the fact is, most people accept that Hamas cares less for Gazans lives than even Israel does, so nobody bothers making any demands of them to begin with.

You are not taking into account their notion of martyrdom.

It is hard for me to conceive of it, and less to live it, but martyrdom is a part of their religious culture.

Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Sun Dec 10, 2023 12:24 pm

accelafine wrote: ↑Sun Dec 10, 2023 12:09 pm If those wankers at the pro Hamas Nuremburg-style rallies in London really 'care' about Gazans so much, then why aren't there any signs saying 'Release the hostages'? Release them and the ceasefire they are allegedly so 'desperate' for will happen. Seems pretty straightforward to me.
Could it be that they don't actually 'care' at all?

I think the fact is, most people accept that Hamas cares less for Gazans lives than even Israel does, so nobody bothers making any demands of them to begin with.

Yet Israel cares enough about Gazans to forewarn them, and then escort them to safety to protect them from Hamas which was preventing them from leaving the bombing zones. Human shields aren't much use when they aren't in the line of fire.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sun Dec 10, 2023 12:33 pm

Are you really that thick? Seriously? Come on now.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Dec 10, 2023 3:01 pm

Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Sun Dec 10, 2023 12:24 pm

accelafine wrote: ↑Sun Dec 10, 2023 12:09 pm If those wankers at the pro Hamas Nuremburg-style rallies in London really 'care' about Gazans so much, then why aren't there any signs saying 'Release the hostages'? Release them and the ceasefire they are allegedly so 'desperate' for will happen. Seems pretty straightforward to me.
Could it be that they don't actually 'care' at all?

I think the fact is, most people accept that Hamas cares less for Gazans lives than even Israel does, so nobody bothers making any demands of them to begin with.

Possibly. That would be a reasonable thing for them to think.

But then, why do people in the Western world go about tearing down the posters of the victims? It's almost like they hate them for being Jews, and want to see them stay as hostages to Hamas...

Well, I'm not happy to see any civilians killed. It's horrible. However, it seems to be unrealistic to expect Israel to stop its attack. It sounds like this whole disaster rests in the hands of Hamas and no one else. And Hamas is probably little more than a tool for Iran and possibly Russia. Civilians are simply pawns in this ridiculous game.

I wish Israel wasn't killing journalists. It sounds like they are deliberately targeting journalists reporting from Gaza. However, there doesn't seem to be anything I can credibly say anymore regarding the situation of the Gazans. I wish this war would just end. If Hamas would just surrender that would end a lot of suffering of other people around them. However, like the Nazis, Hamas wants to fight to the last man while their own people all around them are killed.

If the leaders of Hamas had any sense, they'd surrender and become prisoners of war in the name of sparing women and children around them from the horrors going on. Most of us would surrender if we were beaten to that point. What is the matter with them? Maybe, like the Nazis they have come to realize their own villainy and have nothing more to do than try to take their foes with them? It's insane.

Yet Israel cares enough about Gazans to forewarn them, and then escort them to safety to protect them from Hamas which was preventing them from leaving the bombing zones. Human shields aren't much use when they aren't in the line of fire.

"We're going to kill you tomorrow if you don't move.

In case you didn't get this text message because there is not cell phone service or no electrical power in your area, we are terribly sorry.

Have a nice day. "

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sun Dec 10, 2023 7:40 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Dec 10, 2023 3:01 pm

Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Sun Dec 10, 2023 12:24 pm

I think the fact is, most people accept that Hamas cares less for Gazans lives than even Israel does, so nobody bothers making any demands of them to begin with.

Possibly. That would be a reasonable thing for them to think.

But then, why do people in the Western world go about tearing down the posters of the victims? It's almost like they hate them for being Jews, and want to see them stay as hostages to Hamas...

Well, I'm not happy to see any civilians killed. It's horrible. However, it seems to be unrealistic to expect Israel to stop its attack. It sounds like this whole disaster rests in the hands of Hamas and no one else. And Hamas is probably little more than a tool for Iran and possibly Russia to stir unrest. Those two countries should be ashamed of themselves, as I am ashamed of my country's attack on Iraq and Afghanistan.

Fair enough.

I wish Israel wasn't killing journalists.

I have not heard that they are...and I would be very circumspect about believing any such report. For one thing, it makes no sense for them to do that; journalists are attached to news agencies, and a country desperately in need of good PR would not find it strategic.

I wish this war would just end.

I think everybody does...except Hamas.

If Hamas would just surrender that would end a lot of suffering of other people around them. However, like the Nazis, Hamas wants to fight to the last man while their own people all around them are killed.

Yes, so it seems.

If the leaders of Hamas had a soul, they'd surrender and become prisoners of war in the name of sparing women and children around them from the horrors going on. Most of us would surrender if we were beaten to that point. What is the matter with them?

Hatred is powerful. So is Islam. Put the two together, and you've got a really toxic brew. You've got people filled with bile who are telling themselves that dying for their cause is going to make them legends and heroes, and even get them 72 virgins to abuse for all eternity.

You're right: it's completely nuts. But it's clearly something they believe with such white-hot, suicidal intensity that they'll strap bombs to their bodies, machinegun theatres full of innocents, march their children into minefields, fly planes into buildings, and fight to the last man in order to keep believing in.

Those are the people everybody's calling on Israel to let off the hook. But if that's the way they are, then can they? Somebody should tell them how they can do it safely, if that's what we want. And I'm certain they'd take any road they can get out of the present conflict. This just isn't in Israel's self-interest...it's all working Hamas's way.

Hamas's goals are simple: either destroy the state of Israel and kill every Jew, or immolate themselves and their own citizens in such a way that the rest of the world turns on Israel. So far, they're getting the second option: can we find a different one? We'd better hope so, for the sake of the innocent Palestinians, at least.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Dec 10, 2023 7:54 pm I wish Israel wasn't killing journalists.
I have not heard that they are...and I would be very circumspect about believing any such report. For one thing, it makes no sense for them to do that; journalists are attached to news agencies, and a country desperately in need of good PR would not find it strategic.

If you remove intent from the equation it becomes easier to talk about. Israel has done a lot of killing over the last couple months - over 17k people by their own count. It shouldn't be THAT surprising that more than 0 of those 17k people were journalists. Journalists put themselves in dangerous situations all the time.

Now when you add intent to the question, there a debate rises up. Did they deliberately kill any journalists? Some people think so. I think you're right to some degree that that just seems like a bad pr move from our perspective. But I also know that our outside perspective cannot account for all the things the leaders involved know, think, believe, value etc.

phyllo wrote: ↑Sun Dec 10, 2023 7:41 pm

Yet Israel cares enough about Gazans to forewarn them, and then escort them to safety to protect them from Hamas which was preventing them from leaving the bombing zones. Human shields aren't much use when they aren't in the line of fire.

"We're going to kill you tomorrow if you don't move.

In case you didn't get this text message because there is not cell phone service or no electrical power in your area, we are terribly sorry.

Have a nice day. "

'Funny' how the Gazans always have enough internet to film their atrocities. Gazans are just pawns to Hamas. How do you expect Israel to get those hostages back? Why were they taken in the first place? Has anyone asked that? Why do you think they were taken? How much warning did the US give to those adorable Japanese children (probably the most endearing creatures in the known universe) before they condemned them to being slowly cooked from the inside out?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Dec 10, 2023 7:54 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sun Dec 10, 2023 7:40 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Dec 10, 2023 3:01 pm
Possibly. That would be a reasonable thing for them to think.

But then, why do people in the Western world go about tearing down the posters of the victims? It's almost like they hate them for being Jews, and want to see them stay as hostages to Hamas...

Well, I'm not happy to see any civilians killed. It's horrible. However, it seems to be unrealistic to expect Israel to stop its attack. It sounds like this whole disaster rests in the hands of Hamas and no one else. And Hamas is probably little more than a tool for Iran and possibly Russia to stir unrest. Those two countries should be ashamed of themselves, as I am ashamed of my country's attack on Iraq and Afghanistan.

Fair enough.

I wish Israel wasn't killing journalists.

I have not heard that they are...and I would be very circumspect about believing any such report. For one thing, it makes no sense for them to do that; journalists are attached to news agencies, and a country desperately in need of good PR would not find it strategic.

It's bullshit of course. There's no motive for them to do that.

Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Sun Dec 10, 2023 8:01 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Dec 10, 2023 7:54 pm I wish Israel wasn't killing journalists.
I have not heard that they are...and I would be very circumspect about believing any such report. For one thing, it makes no sense for them to do that; journalists are attached to news agencies, and a country desperately in need of good PR would not find it strategic.

If you remove intent from the equation it becomes easier to talk about.

Well, intent is one of three criteria of an immoral killing. If we remove it, then we're talking only about some kind of mishap or accident. Are you sure you want to stipulate that?

Journalists put themselves in dangerous situations all the time.

Not so often as they used to, actually. We have many fewer journalists since the internet. News agencies are smaller, employ fewer people, and tend to rely on others' foreign corresponents, or even just to get their copy from other agencies. But I'm sure there are a few journalists still doing that, if we have any first-hand reporting going on.

Still, if they put themselves in dangerous situations, then they might be killed. That's their choice. It's hard to accuse anybody else of being at fault for that, when they knew the risks going in, isn't it?

Now when you add intent to the question, there a debate rises up. Did they deliberately kill any journalists? Some people think so. I think you're right to some degree that that just seems like a bad pr move from our perspective. But I also know that our outside perspective cannot account for all the things the leaders involved know, think, believe, value etc.

That's certainly true. But if somebody's suggesting that Israel is assassinating journalists in a vain attempt to hush up what the war is causing, I think that's a very implausible sort of claim. For one thing, it obviously wouldn't work, and would actually cause all the news agencies to pay more attention, not less. For another, I can't see what Israel would get out of it.

So I'd want to see the proof that it's happening....and I'd want to see some really credible accounting for how these deaths would serve any purpose that Israel would find useful. To me, that seems a big ask: I don't think it can be done.

How do you expect Israel to get those hostages back?

By killing every man, woman and child in Gaza. Of course.

"You must remember what Amalek has done to you, says our Holy Bible. And we do remember.” - Netenyahu 2023

phyllo wrote: ↑Sun Dec 10, 2023 8:14 pm

How do you expect Israel to get those hostages back?

By killing every man, woman and child in Gaza. Of course.

"You must remember what Amalek has done to you, says our Holy Bible. And we do remember.” - Netenyahu 2023

Ok. Let's just get facetious and 'funny' instead of actually answering the question. Works every time