Philosophy Now Forum

You cared enough to make your arguments.

When it comes to style, these judgments are put against a community, specifically this community (this forum). This is a large topic to get into, outside the frame of the OP. So I won't go into detail here other than what I've already stated or accused. I don't have (as much) a problem with your style as others. It comes across to me, and likely others, as anti-social. It's like your speaking a different language.

Language is used to translate thoughts, concepts, ideas, emotions, etc. When you use language, grammar, or syntax, seemingly randomly, or outlandishly in style, then it's off-putting. Why? Because people copy each other. That's how thoughts are "shared". If people cannot copy an idea, then they literally and physically "don't understand it". If your syntax were changed, people would be more tolerant and patient to 'share' ideas with you. Take my word for it, or don't, it's up to you.

Like I said, I enjoy substance before style. Very few others do.

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Fri May 05, 2023 10:24 am

Age wrote: ↑Fri May 05, 2023 10:09 amThis might come in VERY HANDY for those who ARE SO TROUBLED here.

But what do you mean by 'DEFEAT' here?

There is absolutely NOTHING I SAY NOR CLAIM here that is IN BATTLE, NOR TO BE CONTESTED.

My perspective tends to see things as conflicted or contested.

WHY THEN do you NOT BRING TO LIGHT what YOUR perspective TENDS TO SEE here?

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Fri May 05, 2023 10:24 am

Age wrote: ↑Fri May 05, 2023 10:09 amIf some 'thing' I SAY or CLAIM is just False, Wrong, or Incorrect, or partly False, Wrong, or Incorrect, then just POINT 'this' or 'them' OUT, and just SHOW what IS ACTUALLY True, what IS ACTUALLY Right, and/or what IS ACTUALLY Correct. There is REALLY NOTHING AT ALL 'hard' NOR 'complex' about just DOING 'this', right?

ALSO, just CHANGING the ACTUAL WORDS that I WRITE, in the ACTUAL WAY I WRITE 'them', just MEANS part of the ACTUAL MEANING can be FURTHER LOST or MISSED than 'it' IS ALREADY BEING.

A lesson I've learned in life:

Often it doesn't matter how Right or True you are,
The masses of people will reject you outright if your style does not compliment them.

BUT IT IS 'the them' WHO IT WOULD BE BEST TO NEVER 'compliment' AT ALL.

OBVIOUSLY, ALL of 'them' DO SOME Right AND SOME GOOD. BUT 'this' is, OBVIOUSLY, NOT some 'thing', which even NEEDS LOOKING AT, NOR CHANGING, AT ALL. AND, if absolutely ANY one WANTS, or 'NEEDS', 'compliments' or 'complimenting', then that is A SURE SIGN of SIGNIFICANT PREVIOUS ABUSE having occurred.

Now what NEEDS TO CHANGE, for the BETTER, is ALL of the Wrong and the BAD that ALL of 'you', adult human beings, ARE DOING, in the days when this is being written.

And, if the 'masses of people' WILL REJECT 'me' OUTRIGHT, if MY STYLE does NOT compliment 'them', in the days when this is being written, then GREAT, 'you lot' WILL HAVE PROVIDED the ACTUAL PROOF of WHAT EXACTLY NEEDED, and for a time NEEDS, CHANGING WITHIN 'you', human beings.

SERIOUSLY, how Truly INSECURE could an adult human being been grown up TO BECOME NEEDING 'compliments' BEFORE they would even BEGIN TO LISTEN to "ANOTHER"?

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Fri May 05, 2023 11:01 am You cared enough to make your arguments.

Which are either sound AND valid, which you could NOT REFUTE, or you just did NOT want to even try to.

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Fri May 05, 2023 11:01 am When it comes to style, these judgments are put against a community, specifically this community (this forum).

But 'you' are here ONLY speaking FOR 'you', or do 'you' think or BELIEVE that you are speaking FOR 'the community', itself, here.

This is a large topic to get into, outside the frame of the OP. So I won't go into detail here other than what I've already stated or accused. [/quote]

SO, 'you' have STATED and ACCUSED my WRITING STYLE and GRAMMAR of SMACKING of Autism, Asperger Syndrome, or another type of Anti-Social trait, of NOT developing literacy skills in coherence with "my" society, of MY STYLE being so abrasive and of seeming offensive or insulting to the layman, and of breaking the so-called unspoken RULES (with an 's') of society, which includes language AND literacy, YET you WILL NOT PROVIDE just ONE example of ANY of these ALLEGATIONS, NOR even just CLARIFY ANY 'thing' here.

So, what this ESSENTIALLY MEANS is that absolutely ANY one CAN just STATE and ACCUSE absolutely ANY one "else" of absolutely ANY 'thing' here, but does NOT HAVE TO provide absolutely ANY 'thing' AT ALL, NOR even just CLARIFY ANY QUESTIONS posed and ASKED.

Which is all FAIR ENOUGH, but I suggest if one wants to CRITIQUE a writing style and behavior, then I KNOW which one I WOULD.

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Fri May 05, 2023 11:01 am I don't have (as much) a problem with your style as others. It comes across to me, and likely others, as anti-social,
It's like your speaking a different language.

And it is like you are speaking NO language AT ALL.

ALL you are REALLY DOING is just SAYING WORDS and MAKING ACCUSATIONS, but WITHOUT adding absolutely ANY substance NOR content AT ALL.

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Fri May 05, 2023 11:01 am Language is used to translate thoughts, concepts, ideas, emotions, etc.

Okay, thank you.

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Fri May 05, 2023 11:01 am When you use language, grammar, or syntax, seemingly randomly, or outlandishly in style, then it's off-putting.

I do NOT care.

I do, what I do, for a VERY SPECIFIC REASON.

And, by the way, what you ARE DOING, and NOT DOING here, is for that VERY EXACT REASON.

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Fri May 05, 2023 11:01 am Why? Because people copy each other.

And BECAUSE 'you', people, actually DO copy "each other" this is WHY 'you' ALL took SO LONG to LEARN and UNDERSTAND NEW 'things', to 'you'.

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Fri May 05, 2023 11:01 am That's how thoughts are "shared".

Thoughts are 'shared' BECAUSE that is what human beings DO.

How thoughts are 'shared' is just BECAUSE of and through signs, symbols, and/or language.

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Fri May 05, 2023 11:01 am If people cannot copy an idea, then they literally and physically "don't understand it".

So what?

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Fri May 05, 2023 11:01 am If your syntax were changed, people would be more tolerant and patient to 'share' ideas with you.

What is 'my syntax'? How and in what way/s can 'it' be CHANGED?

Will you provide ANY examples of what 'ideas' ANY one would be more tolerant and patient to 'share' with me, if I just CHANGED 'my syntax'?

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Fri May 05, 2023 11:01 am Take my word for it, or don't, it's up to you.

Okay, but I do NOT even KNOW what 'syntax' IS, EXACTLY, let alone KNOW how to CHANGE 'my syntax' (whatever 'that' ACTUALLY IS, EXACTLY).

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Fri May 05, 2023 11:01 am Like I said, I enjoy substance before style. Very few others do.

I enjoy LEARNING and CLARIFYING over just about ANY 'thing' else here. Whereas, most of 'you' DO NOT.

But 'this' is NOT ABOUT 'us', right?

The true spirit of Philosophy!

38) Respond to all views that seem to disagree (on one or more specific points or in a more general way) as if they represent the completely opposed position you are used to thinking of as the enemy. If your position is X, treat anyone who does not completely agree as ~X. Never respond as if there might be degrees of difference, something to learn about one's argument, or more than two possible positions (Y, BREN, C, 2ET or whatever). There are two positions. If you are not completely with me, you are part of the known enemy and arguments/responses that fit their position, fit yours. [a la George Bush]

Updated list....

1) Always say that you have demonstrated, proven or shown that X is true or Y is false. Even if all you have done is state or assert. Your assertions are proofs.

2) Don't respond to points made; restate in a new paraphrase what you've already asserted. Avoid justification of beliefs. See number 1.

3) Don't respond to points made; demand that the other person prove the opposite of your position.

4) Add links. Don't worry if they do what you claim. Don't bother reading them carefully. Later accuse the other person of having no evidence because they don't use links.

5) If cornered in any way, or just as a preemptive strike, insult your discussion partner. This may lead to an exchange of insults and any weaknesses in your position will be forgotten in the fray.

6) Don't respond to points made; accuse the other person of not having solved a related or unrelated issue.

7) Appeal to authority, and always imply that there is consensus amongst experts. Whatever you link to, the opinion expressed there is universal and objective.

8 Divide every issue into 2 possible positions: yours and the false/evil/irrational one. There are no third possible positions. You're either with us or against us.

9) Mindread. If someone does not respond to a post, say that they are afraid or have given up. If someone ignores you, say that they know they are beaten. If they are critical of a war, say they love the leader of the other side's leader. You get the idea. DO NOT justify these claims.

10) Call failure to disprove, proof of your belief. Oh, and it doesn't matter if they failed. They can even have mounted a solid argument. That has zero consequence.

11) Start new threads that are actually just continuations of current threads. Without saying it, this implies that you have the magic bullet. Treat all your posts as victories and nails in the coffin. This is an implicit trope for number 12's open one.

12) Claim victory. This can be done openly. Self-congratulate.

13) Claim you are the best philosopher - not just here at PN, but in general. Never aim low when making claims that you in particular cannot be convinced are untrue.

14) Claim that your assertions are better than other people's assertions per se: justify this via something that may seem easy to dismiss but is hard to finally contradict such as: you are from the future, you've changed your mind many times, you have no beliefs or you have a lot of files on the topic are some examples already used. Be creative in coming up with the reason your posts per se are better than other people's. The competition here is stiff.

15) Don't respond to points made; restate in a new paraphrase what you already asserted. This should be everyone's baseline rhetorical strategy. Again, this is the core of PN style.

16) Appeal to incredulity. Best done indirectly through mocking, especially with emojis. If you are ever conrnered, use a large number of moving emojis. This shows commitment and since it is not an argument, it is impossible to counter.

17) Treat the hypothetical as factual. You can even say it is hypothetical, then slide into referring to it as factual. Zero loss, much to gain.

18) REPEAT YOUR POSITION AS IF IT IS A RESPONSE: Regardless of what the other person says or points out that you ignore. Only true positions can be repeated. Commitment is truth. Your certainty should be their certainty

19) Remember anyone who dismisses you for any of the above, is showing that they fear the power of your posts. See 9 for some variations.

20) Write complicated non-responses that might somehow metaphorically relate but likely not. Unitelligibleness or inanis ultrices cannot be easily disproven or even argued with.

21) Use idiosyncratic and confusing use of capital letters and citation marks, and ask a lot of questions. Blame others for not understanding your idiosyncracies and ask many more questions. Be disappointed in their responses. Respond to any interpretation of what you said or disagreement with outrage. And ask more questions. Keep the onus on them.

22) Take up too much space with either unnecessary quoting of images, unique formatting or empty space. This creates extra noise in the thread and less signal.

23) Treat any topic as an invitation to one of your pet peeve issues. Do not be a respecter of topics.

24) Post such that it is unclear what you are responding to and even how you are responding to it.

25) Talk about another poster, but not with them.

26) Never simply say 'I disagree,' and then go on to explain why. Always demote the other person, label their thinking or be stunned by their ignorance and express this directly. For ex. 'you are weak thinker', 'Go deeper' or 'Such ingnorance!' Preferably a number of these in a row. Many people will do this on occasion when especially frustrated. An artist regularly reacts this way, especially in long disagreements. If you are missing opportunities, you'll never be a PN stylist.

27) Abuse terms that already exist by meaning something completely new by them. And make up plenty of your own silly terms. For example, instead of saying "Free Will", say "Andy Dufresne Syndrome", because you once saw a movie that sorta reminds you of this idea a little bit.

28) Rephrase what other people have said. Deny you made any significant change. Never consider that you may have done this. You may consciously choose to make a strawman or note, through patterns of discussion partner irritation, that you already have a gift for this. Never admit to strawman behavior. Hold the line. They have the burden of proof to show that you presented a false attribution. It is their job to show it is not right, not your job to justify the changes you made. Must one truly use the quote function. I mean, seriously!!??

29) Do not concern yourself with best arguments and rebuttals: dominate and get responses: Frustrating people - for example by not quite responding to them while quoting them - irritating them - see many of the above numbers - and putting all the burden on them, does several things: 1) you'll notice they do a lot of explaining while you don't; 2) you'll notice that they get upset, which means you are winning 3) some will stop communicating with you - this allows you to a) claim victory and b) take the high ground of never ignoring anyone - I mean, why ignore why you can frustrate, irritate and shift the burden to them? 29 is the strategy of the true geniuses.

30) Respond with a negative evaluation of the other person or their posts. Do not justify this. Some example: 'Seriously' 'LOL' 'Really' 'Go deeper' 'You are confused'. It is similar to 16, appeal to incredulity. Instead of wasting time dealing with any points the other person made, you go directly to the heart of the issue. No need to explain or demonstrate. These are great opening lines, but the great rhetoricians often use these as stand alone responses. This shifts all the work, where it belongs, to the less skilled. 26 is similar, but 26 is usually used before a longer posting, where one repeats one's position without responding to specific points made. 30 is more stand alone or as part of playing to the gallery.

31)If you have no answer, never let on. Of course you know the perfect answer, but first there is some vital other question that must be addressed before you could possibly address that answer. This new question is of course impossible to answer to your satisfaction.

32) Fabricate non-truths, and then when somebody calls you a liar, loudly announce that this is ad hominem. Never learn what ad hominem means, that would be bad for business. Suddenly, but ever so briefly, know what ad hominem means whenever you are accused of it.

33) Dismiss philosophy in general. Point out how the whole endeavor is riddled with absurdity and or contradiction. Use a good deal of abstraction and obviously use this against positions you disagree with and thus only on occasion. Using a contrast with science, a cynical philosophy of language position or a model of 'thinking' are some common forms of this. If anyone points out you are using philosophical tools in this argument or in other places focus on other parts of their posts.

34) Never admit to any stable beliefs that another person might be able to discuss with you and potentially undermine. If you say something that implies a belief, and that belief is criticized at all, you can always say "I never said I believe that". Closely related, change your beliefs at will (but without acknowledging a change in your beliefs) so that the context of the conversation is never stable enough to progress further.

35) Write texts that are in part vague, in other ways ambiguous, include jargon, floral poetry and/or what would get called metaphysical speculation by rhetorical amateurs. Mixed metaphors are always a plus. Make sure all statement are clearly are intended as universal, objective and deep, especially if the topic is in some way spiritual. If anyone tries to paraphrase any part or the whole, accuse them of number 28 and imply or state victimization. If they shift to clarifying questions, rhetorical ambiguity is the device of choice. It can also be combined with 33 very effectively. Denigrate philosophical analysis, but call it something else.

36) Play to a non-existent gallery. Any single line or very short post which means, more or less, hey, likeminded-to-me people, look at this post and how bad it is. Do not justify any implicit position. Do not point out any flaws in the post you are responding to. This is actually a way to imply consensus with people who do not exist. Where rhetoric moves into magic.

37) Use citation or quotation marks on a key term. Not as an insult - as in Your 'argument' does not make any sense. At times just make sure one of the key words in your post is in citation marks. Do NOT explain this. Later if someone points out problems in your deduction, for example, you can just say that actually you meant something else when you used that term. It's hedging your bets. Also, since it is unclear what you mean with the citation marks, the vagueness can lead to people making 'faulty' assumptions. You can lord this over them. I put 'faulty' in citation marks, since of course their assumptions may well have been quite accurate interpretations of the sentence. That's the beauty of the unexplained citation marks: you got options.

38) Respond to all views that seem to disagree (on a specific point or in general) as if they represent the completely opposed position you are used to thinking of as the enemy. If your position is X, treat anyone who does not completely agree as ~X. Never respond as if there might be degrees of difference, something to learn about one's argument, or more than two possible positions (Y, BREN, C, 2ET or whatever). There are two positions. If you are not completely with me, you are part of the known enemy and arguments/responses that fit their position, fit yours. [a la George Bush] Point # 3 can be an ally in this rhetorical device.

(I will keep updating the list with my and your suggestions)

A new rhetoric tool: the GOOIGSWWNHJI tool.
Basic function of the tool: it gives everyone else the onus.

So, let's say in a thread on Communism you start talking about the absurdity of communism privitizing most government services.

Perhaps people start saying that that isn't communism.

Ha!

Don't let them distract you from your critique of communism. Whether you understand what communism means or not, you know there is a big problem with it and you can't imagine how it could really help you solve a certain problem that workers have. The latter matters to you at least hypothetically.

The other posters in the thread may mistakenly think that your misconceptions of communism are important to clear up, given that the thread is about communism. Ha!

No, they bear the onus to show how communism helps workers.

Never, ever take on the onus to justify anything, even if you think others should justify what they say and you tell them this. They will never solve your problems, as far as you can tell, so why take on onus for anything.

This Give the Others the Onus, I Get to Say Whatever I Want and Never Have to Justify It Tool is very effective.

Use it regularly, especially if other people know more about a topic than you do.

From here on out I will abbreviate this tool and call it the GOOIGSWWNHJI tool.