Pagan morality

[Maia]

Perhaps death is indeed nothingness, but at the very least, we know that upon death, we become part of the earth again, and part of the endless cycle of life. Unless you have your ashes blasted into space, or something, which is a very bad idea, in my opinion.

Why is that a very bad idea?

It's not scary to me because I'm used to it. It's just normal. I can certainly understand why people are scared of the idea of losing their sight, though. It must be a very traumatic experience, and one, thankfully, that I'll never have to go through.

One of my best friends, a fella from Newcastle phoned me yesterday and told me he is currently blind in one eye. Apparently his retina came off or something but should be temporary.

Yes, that's right. I don't have any light perception.

In primary school a teacher explained how one could attempt to explain colours to a blind person by suggesting they touch something hot and that is red, and touch something from the freezer and that is blue. I doubt that helps!

I think the post important things about dreams are there emotional content, or emotional signature, even. That's why whenever we try and describe them in words, they almost always sound trivial, because we are not describing the most important part about them. I don't remember, for example, ever having a recurring dream, by which I mean a repeating sequence of specific events, but I've definitely had dreams that have the same emotional signature, as it were, to other dreams, and seem to follow on from them, in some way, with similar settings. Also, the settings themselves are usually real places, though in the dreams they might be nothing much like the actual real places, but somehow you just know that that's where they're meant to be. And being slightly claustrophobic, some of my dreams involve odd spaces, enclosed tunnels for example, with steps leading down then suddenly ending in a void. That's one set, anyway, but another set is completely different, involving me travelling a long distance, often, though not always, by walking, searching for something and/or someone. These usually take place in real locations, though in the dreams they are often quite different to real life. I usually wake up before finding whatever it is, though not always. Another set involves school, but I suppose that's pretty standard.

Have you ever had a lucid dream? A dream where you are fully aware that you are within a dream and are able to interact with the "virtual" reality of the dream world? Personally, I've had countless of them. One in particular I met my sage in a small fishing village and at one point I was in a market and had no shoes on and I started jumping up and down while looking down at my feet and stating wow, this is so real. In another I went up to a wall and attempted to scrape the paint off of the wall while my sage sat in a chair at the end of the hall and I turned to him and told him not to wake me up yet.

No, never. I'm still very good friends with the coven members, for example, even though I chose to leave it.

Why did you join in the first place?

+++Why is that a very bad idea?+++

Because you wouldn't become part of the earth again.

+++One of my best friends, a fella from Newcastle phoned me yesterday and told me he is currently blind in one eye. Apparently his retina came off or something but should be temporary.+++

I hope he makes a full recovery.

+++In primary school a teacher explained how one could attempt to explain colours to a blind person by suggesting they touch something hot and that is red, and touch something from the freezer and that is blue. I doubt that helps!+++

Doesn't really help, to be honest. I know that black is hotter to the touch than white, when it's been in the sun. On a car, for example. And I know why, too.

+++Have you ever had a lucid dream? A dream where you are fully aware that you are within a dream and are able to interact with the "virtual" reality of the dream world? Personally, I've had countless of them. One in particular I met my sage in a small fishing village and at one point I was in a market and had no shoes on and I started jumping up and down while looking down at my feet and stating wow, this is so real. In another I went up to a wall and attempted to scrape the paint off of the wall while my sage sat in a chair at the end of the hall and I turned to him and told him not to wake me up yet.+++

Yes, I have. It tends to happen in the latter part of a dream, when I'm waking up a bit. I realise that I'm dreaming, and the dream still continues. Not usually for very long, though. I can also sometimes go back to the same dream if I wake up and move, for example, and then lie down again in the same position as I was when I woke up. It doesn't always work, though, and presumably depends on how much I've woken up.

+++Why did you join in the first place?+++

They were more or less the first Pagans I met, after leaving school and getting involved in the local Pagan community. It was all very exciting and new. And it would be wrong to say that I didn't get anything out of it, because I did. Not least, some enduring friendships.

[attofishpi]

+++Why is that a very bad idea?+++

Because you wouldn't become part of the earth again.

So what is the problem with that?

+++One of my best friends, a fella from Newcastle phoned me yesterday and told me he is currently blind in one eye. Apparently his retina came off or something but should be temporary.+++

I hope he makes a full recovery.

Pretty certain he will, he didn't seem too concerned about it and only mentioned it after he told me all about his holiday with the family in Japan. Definitely got to get to Japan at some point in the future, sounds awesome.

+++Have you ever had a lucid dream? A dream where you are fully aware that you are within a dream and are able to interact with the "virtual" reality of the dream world? Personally, I've had countless of them. One in particular I met my sage in a small fishing village and at one point I was in a market and had no shoes on and I started jumping up and down while looking down at my feet and stating wow, this is so real. In another I went up to a wall and attempted to scrape the paint off of the wall while my sage sat in a chair at the end of the hall and I turned to him and told him not to wake me up yet.+++

Yes, I have. It tends to happen in the latter part of a dream, when I'm waking up a bit. I realise that I'm dreaming, and the dream still continues. Not usually for very long, though. I can also sometimes go back to the same dream if I wake up and move, for example, and then lie down again in the same position as I was when I woke up. It doesn't always work, though, and presumably depends on how much I've woken up.

Yes, I've had similar experiences. It amazes me contemplating how you would dream of your reality (without light). A world constructed of 3D forms and sounds.

I've noticed among people I know that it seems only 'spiritually' minded people seem to receive the lucid dreams. I could be wrong and certainly there could be fervent atheists on this forum that also have these dreams, but certainly in my acquaintances it seems only those with a degree of belief in something more to reality that seem to get the lucid dreams.

+++Why did you join in the first place?+++

They were more or less the first Pagans I met, after leaving school and getting involved in the local Pagan community. It was all very exciting and new. And it would be wrong to say that I didn't get anything out of it, because I did. Not least, some enduring friendships.

Well, even though I am Christian I certainly wouldn't join any of their groups --- I'd die of bordom I think. Actually, many moons ago a girlfriend's Mum was super religious Christian and she had a "party" at her place and I was invited. It was quite good fun, childlike in a way -- flicking balloons to each other and drinking lemon squash!! I didn't even have a hip flask of vodka to spruce it up...didn't need to...I really did actually enjoy the day...right up to getting my arse kicked in a game of chess with some black fella...lol, he certainly knew how to play.

Anyway. Glad you have made some nice friendships from the Pagans. You mentioned you are a pantheist, me too. However, I consider myself a Christian pantheist. Pantheism - all reality being under the behest of GOD allows for Christ to turn water into wine etc...any priest I have mentioned pantheism to rejects it however, and they can kiss attos arse.

[Maia]

+++So what is the problem with that?+++

It would feel wrong, somehow, not to become part of the cycle of life again. We're all part of the earth, even while we're still alive. I wouldn't want to separate myself from that.

+++Pretty certain he will, he didn't seem too concerned about it and only mentioned it after he told me all about his holiday with the family in Japan. Definitely got to get to Japan at some point in the future, sounds awesome.+++

Glad to hear it.

Japan does indeed sound like a fascinating place, though perhaps a little hectic in the big cities. An ancient, highly civilised culture, developing completely separately from our own. Well, in earlier times, anyway. Western contact with Japan goes back quite a few centuries.

+++Yes, I've had similar experiences. It amazes me contemplating how you would dream of your reality (without light). A world constructed of 3D forms and sounds.+++

Without light, and without darkness, too. Smells play an important role, of course, and I've often dreamt of tasting things, as well.

+++I've noticed among people I know that it seems only 'spiritually' minded people seem to receive the lucid dreams. I could be wrong and certainly there could be fervent atheists on this forum that also have these dreams, but certainly in my acquaintances it seems only those with a degree of belief in something more to reality that seem to get the lucid dreams.+++

I hadn't really considered that before, but it makes sense, I suppose.

+++Well, even though I am Christian I certainly wouldn't join any of their groups --- I'd die of bordom I think. Actually, many moons ago a girlfriend's Mum was super religious Christian and she had a "party" at her place and I was invited. It was quite good fun, childlike in a way -- flicking balloons to each other and drinking lemon squash!! I didn't even have a hip flask of vodka to spruce it up...didn't need to...I really did actually enjoy the day...right up to getting my arse kicked in a game of chess with some black fella...lol, he certainly knew how to play.+++

It was the overly ritualised nature of what they did that eventually put me off. Wiccans have various formal ways of holding their meetings, and these became a bit tedious after a while, and to me, at least, pointless. Just going through the motions, quite literally. Other people get benefit from them, though, and that's fine. And, indeed, even since leaving the coven, I've taken part in such events, on special occasions.

+++Anyway. Glad you have made some nice friendships from the Pagans. You mentioned you are a pantheist, me too. However, I consider myself a Christian pantheist. Pantheism - all reality being under the behest of GOD allows for Christ to turn water into wine etc...any priest I have mentioned pantheism to rejects it however, and they can kiss attos arse. +++

Isn't the idea of pantheism that there isn't any such deity, separate from the universe? There are obviously different interpretations, though.

[attofishpi]

+++So what is the problem with that?+++

It would feel wrong, somehow, not to become part of the cycle of life again. We're all part of the earth, even while we're still alive. I wouldn't want to separate myself from that.

Absolutely we are all part of Earth while we are alive. When we are dead our matter can return to Earth or shoot off into space. Earth might be missing some elements but that is all, rather miniscule really.

Personally, I think our 'soul' is a mere pointer within (living) matter (computer programming stuff). The GOD has made our REAL_IT_Y as efficient as possible, and I comprehend reason for that. Once the encompassing matter is dead it matters not what happens to it. Perhaps it would be a good idea to power turbines and create clean energy from our dead bodies

+++Yes, I've had similar experiences. It amazes me contemplating how you would dream of your reality (without light). A world constructed of 3D forms and sounds.+++

Without light, and without darkness, too. Smells play an important role, of course, and I've often dreamt of tasting things, as well.

That's it! I was busy today while posting but I could not for the life of me think of the other senses that you'd have...honestly, I think GOD had me brain blocked at the time (brian's brain was blocked, lol)

I'm not certain I have ever tasted or smelt within a lucid dream. A recent one I had a group of girls were making me a cup of tea but the GOD\sage system had me awoken prior to me savouring the brew.

+++I've noticed among people I know that it seems only 'spiritually' minded people seem to receive the lucid dreams. I could be wrong and certainly there could be fervent atheists on this forum that also have these dreams, but certainly in my acquaintances it seems only those with a degree of belief in something more to reality that seem to get the lucid dreams.+++

I hadn't really considered that before, but it makes sense, I suppose.

Why does that make sense, to you?

+++Well, even though I am Christian I certainly wouldn't join any of their groups --- I'd die of bordom I think. Actually, many moons ago a girlfriend's Mum was super religious Christian and she had a "party" at her place and I was invited. It was quite good fun, childlike in a way -- flicking balloons to each other and drinking lemon squash!! I didn't even have a hip flask of vodka to spruce it up...didn't need to...I really did actually enjoy the day...right up to getting my arse kicked in a game of chess with some black fella...lol, he certainly knew how to play.+++

It was the overly ritualised nature of what they did that eventually put me off. Wiccans have various formal ways of holding their meetings, and these became a bit tedious after a while, and to me, at least, pointless. Just going through the motions, quite literally. Other people get benefit from them, though, and that's fine. And, indeed, even since leaving the coven, I've taken part in such events, on special occasions.

I understand that. Whenever I have gone to confession (about the only time I bother venturing into a church) I see some of the same people, all ready to eat and drink Christ. Rituals are rather daft. Christ stated do this in memory of me --- he didn't say do it every friggin day, week etc..

GOD is not impressed with daft people...those that are sheep and don't think for themselves.

+++Anyway. Glad you have made some nice friendships from the Pagans. You mentioned you are a pantheist, me too. However, I consider myself a Christian pantheist. Pantheism - all reality being under the behest of GOD allows for Christ to turn water into wine etc...any priest I have mentioned pantheism to rejects it however, and they can kiss attos arse. +++

Isn't the idea of pantheism that there isn't any such deity, separate from the universe? There are obviously different interpretations, though.

Yes, not my version. Last time I checked WIKI Pantheism is defined as having no personal attribute GOD -- basically, a Spinozan version of "GOD" ...ridiculous. So for years I considered then I must be a Panentheist which does allow for a willing personal GOD, but then GOD has to be outside of the perceivable universe - again, a logic fail.

Thus, and alas, I must redefine Pantheism to suit myself. ALL REALITY IS GOD. Whether GOD exists throughout what we perceive of the universe matters not to me -- from my empirical observations of the power of this GOD entity I can safely state in all confidence that GOD has full dominion over MY reality, ergo I believe GOD has full dominion over the reality of other minds (yours, Rick Lewis etc etc.. everyone that has conscious awareness basically).

So a basic definition of Pantheism for me is, GOD is pan reality and EXTREMELY intelligent, willing and personal beyond any comprehension laid out in any scripture. Indeed, we are biological robots when this entity wants a causal result from our being human.

[Maia]

+++Absolutely we are all part of Earth while we are alive. When we are dead our matter can return to Earth or shoot off into space. Earth might be missing some elements but that is all, rather miniscule really.

Personally, I think our 'soul' is a mere pointer within (living) matter (computer programming stuff). The GOD has made our REAL_IT_Y as efficient as possible, and I comprehend reason for that. Once the encompassing matter is dead it matters not what happens to it. Perhaps it would be a good idea to power turbines and create clean energy from our dead bodies +++

I think nature, that is, evolution, has made living things as efficient as practicable, within the limits of what was available to work with, but I wouldn't ascribe any intelligence or plan to this. And I certainly wouldn't use any computer analogy.

+++That's it! I was busy today while posting but I could not for the life of me think of the other senses that you'd have...honestly, I think GOD had me brain blocked at the time (brian's brain was blocked, lol)

I'm not certain I have ever tasted or smelt within a lucid dream. A recent one I had a group of girls were making me a cup of tea but the GOD\sage system had me awoken prior to me savouring the brew.+++

There are, of course, more than the traditional five senses. Senses of motion, gravity, and position, for example, although I suppose it depends on where you draw the line between separate senses. Echolocation is a good example, since it depends on hearing.

+++Why does that make sense, to you?+++

Perhaps we should do a survey, or something. Until then, I'll reserve judgement.

+++I understand that. Whenever I have gone to confession (about the only time I bother venturing into a church) I see some of the same people, all ready to eat and drink Christ. Rituals are rather daft. Christ stated do this in memory of me --- he didn't say do it every friggin day, week etc..

GOD is not impressed with daft people...those that are sheep and don't think for themselves.+++

The only Christian services I've ever attended are things like weddings and funerals. Personally, I wouldn't be able to find a spiritual connection stuck inside a stuffy building, but that's just me. As always, each of us is different.

+++Yes, not my version. Last time I checked WIKI Pantheism is defined as having no personal attribute GOD -- basically, a Spinozan version of "GOD" ...ridiculous. So for years I considered then I must be a Panentheist which does allow for a willing personal GOD, but then GOD has to be outside of the perceivable universe - again, a logic fail.

Thus, and alas, I must redefine Pantheism to suit myself. ALL REALITY IS GOD. Whether GOD exists throughout what we perceive of the universe matters not to me -- from my empirical observations of the power of this GOD entity I can safely state in all confidence that GOD has full dominion over MY reality, ergo I believe GOD has full dominion over the reality of other minds (yours, Rick Lewis etc etc.. everyone that has conscious awareness basically).

So a basic definition of Pantheism for me is, GOD is pan reality and EXTREMELY intelligent, willing and personal beyond any comprehension laid out in any scripture. Indeed, we are biological robots when this entity wants a causal result from our being human. +++

If those beliefs work for you, that's absolutely fine.

[attofishpi]

+++Absolutely we are all part of Earth while we are alive. When we are dead our matter can return to Earth or shoot off into space. Earth might be missing some elements but that is all, rather miniscule really.

Personally, I think our 'soul' is a mere pointer within (living) matter (computer programming stuff). The GOD has made our REAL_IT_Y as efficient as possible, and I comprehend reason for that. Once the encompassing matter is dead it matters not what happens to it. Perhaps it would be a good idea to power turbines and create clean energy from our dead bodies +++

I think nature, that is, evolution, has made living things as efficient as practicable, within the limits of what was available to work with, but I wouldn't ascribe any intelligence or plan to this. And I certainly wouldn't use any computer analogy.

+++That's it! I was busy today while posting but I could not for the life of me think of the other senses that you'd have...honestly, I think GOD had me brain blocked at the time (brian's brain was blocked, lol)

I'm not certain I have ever tasted or smelt within a lucid dream. A recent one I had a group of girls were making me a cup of tea but the GOD\sage system had me awoken prior to me savouring the brew.+++

There are, of course, more than the traditional five senses. Senses of motion, gravity, and position, for example, although I suppose it depends on where you draw the line between separate senses. Echolocation is a good example, since it depends on hearing.

+++Why does that make sense, to you?+++

Perhaps we should do a survey, or something. Until then, I'll reserve judgement.

+++I understand that. Whenever I have gone to confession (about the only time I bother venturing into a church) I see some of the same people, all ready to eat and drink Christ. Rituals are rather daft. Christ stated do this in memory of me --- he didn't say do it every friggin day, week etc..

GOD is not impressed with daft people...those that are sheep and don't think for themselves.+++

The only Christian services I've ever attended are things like weddings and funerals. Personally, I wouldn't be able to find a spiritual connection stuck inside a stuffy building, but that's just me. As always, each of us is different.

+++Yes, not my version. Last time I checked WIKI Pantheism is defined as having no personal attribute GOD -- basically, a Spinozan version of "GOD" ...ridiculous. So for years I considered then I must be a Panentheist which does allow for a willing personal GOD, but then GOD has to be outside of the perceivable universe - again, a logic fail.

Thus, and alas, I must redefine Pantheism to suit myself. ALL REALITY IS GOD. Whether GOD exists throughout what we perceive of the universe matters not to me -- from my empirical observations of the power of this GOD entity I can safely state in all confidence that GOD has full dominion over MY reality, ergo I believe GOD has full dominion over the reality of other minds (yours, Rick Lewis etc etc.. everyone that has conscious awareness basically).

So a basic definition of Pantheism for me is, GOD is pan reality and EXTREMELY intelligent, willing and personal beyond any comprehension laid out in any scripture. Indeed, we are biological robots when this entity wants a causal result from our being human. +++

If those beliefs work for you, that's absolutely fine.

I find your lack of faith and general DO_U_BT in me rather short of insight.

U don't understand the power of the dark side of the force..

I'll be back (to address the above in time).

[Maia]

+++I find your lack of faith and general DO_U_BT in me rather short of insight.

U don't understand the power of the dark side of the force..

I'll be back (to address the above in time). +++

You may recall that in my responses to your two emails yesterday, I asked, very politely, I felt, that you stop trying to convert me. I sincerely hope that you'll be honouring my wishes in this matter, as I find such attempts to be unspeakably boring and therefore, very quickly, and increasingly, annoying, which is never a good thing, for all those concerned.

[attofishpi]

Prey, wot am I trying to convert U 2?

[promethean75]

We have to be capable of imagining that our friends might not be able to agree with us on such matters without being dishonest to themselves, something we wouldn't expect them to be... and this is a particularly juicy little problem for a christian.

Say Fishpi is a christian, and he's talking with a friend (to the best of his ability) about the urgency and what is at stake if christianity is true. Fishpi is a good friend and is concerned. He wants his friend to accept Christ, etc. The friend, in turn, is unable to honestly believe what he's hearing is true and even becomes a little annoyed after a lengthy conversation.

Isn't that a bitch of a situation? The only way out of this for Fishpi is to abandon his friend to what he thinks is a very bad outcome (for not being a christian) or persist in trying to somehow get the light bulb to go pop in his friend's head, all the while jeopardizing the friendship by being so overbearing.

Of our two subjects here, Maia and Fishpi, each being a representative of their religio-philosophical world view, we would choose Maia's more tolerant pagan approach, one which does not perceive man as being in some emergency, as having to 'save' his soul, as being fallen, and as being doomed by refusing to believe what he can't believe honestly.

At worst, Maia might become an ecofascist because of her intimate concern for nature and the environment... but she'd not haggle you about soul-saving like Fishpi.

On the other hand, she can't suffer like a christian fishpi will suffer, as she doesn't bear the burden of having to watch a friend who she thinks will crash and burn for not accepting The Jesus.

Ultimately, my sympathy goes to Fishpi for having to convert people to save what is left of his own sanity. He didn't ask to bear this burden of christian madness.

[attofishpi]

Clearly U have listened to barely a thing I state regarding MY Christianity.

You are insistent to pigeon hole me as just another of the flock of daft sheep. I could not give a flying rats arse about anyone's "soul".

I've stated many times on this forum that belief in Christ, being a "Christian" is not paramount to anything. Being a good, ethical, loving atheist is fine by me, GOD and Christ.

[promethean75]

Then why the precedence of telling all the atheists how wrong they are if it doesn't even really matter as long as they're good peeps?

[attofishpi]

Then why the precedence of telling all the atheists how wrong they are if it doesn't even really matter as long as they're good peeps?

I'm entitled to tell those that insist I am wrong that they are wrong.

[promethean75]

That's fair enough, I guess.

Cool so as long as I don't say fishpi is wrong you won't say I'm wrong.

Wait a minute how are we going to argue then? We're supposed to argue I think.

[attofishpi]

That's fair enough, I guess.

Cool so as long as I don't say fishpi is wrong you won't say I'm wrong.

Wait a minute how are we going to argue then? We're supposed to argue I think.

..but you're always saying I am wrong. Sometimes I'm rather smug with my knowledge that it's FACT that you are wrong with your BELIEF that I am wrong.

This is applicable to all atheists.

[promethean75]

I see.