Equality

[Nick_A]

Pedophila trumps your hyperbole.

I think you underestimate the harm caused by corrupting the mind. It seems normal since it is so common. The real lasting effect of pedophila is what it does to the mind of such a young person.

Indoctrination is more harmful than child sex abuse???

We can agree that Jeffey Epstein's Lolita Island is pedophila and the attempt to make snowflakes out of childtren or creating Hitler's youth. is indoctrination. indoctrrination invites the student to commit the unnatural action of killing people for a cause even to the extent of justifying genocide while pedophila attackes the young body with no concern for the mind.

Both are attacks on the essence of a human being with the results of causing the young essence to become inhuman for a pragmatic purpose by corrupting the emotions of the mind

Mark 9:42

“Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea.

You can ask which is worse but why not ask why either of them are considered evil?

[Belinda]

If you don't approve of LGBT being taught you should vote for a political party that agrees with you.

Let's suppose you're in a conservative country. Suppose I said to you, "If you want women to vote, you should vote for a political party that wants to let them?"

How would you respond? Would you not rightly point out to me that the majority is tyrannizing women, so your vote is not going to succeed in getting the vote for women? So my answer is unhelpful, isn't it?

The Muslim parents, if they don't like LGBT being taught to their children, have no recourse to prevent it. A vote will not get them anything, unless the majority agrees with them.

Your condemnation of educational expertise is unjustifiable.

Actually, I'm quite certain you're wrong about that. I know whereof I speak.

Most parents have neither the experience nor the academic learning of professionals, and trust the professionals to deliver education to their children.

That's what makes the betrayal of that trust so hideous. Parents send their children, trusting that the "professionals" will behave themselves. And some do. But some take it as an open opportunity to propagandize, which they fail even to admit to themselves that they are doing, since they always regard their own beliefs as "the truth," and they think they can't possibly be propagandizing because their own motives are so "pure" and their message is so "true."

Of course, they're often wrong. But a great many are unaware of it.

Consider your position that Muslim parents should have their kids indotrinated in LGBT dogma. Would you even, for a second, consider that you might be wrong about that? And would you ever entertain the thought that pushing it against the parents' wishes was invasive, sexually-interfering, usurping parental rights, and not a proper thing for a public school employee to be doing?

Or would you just say, "Well, those Muslim parents are just ignorant and prejudiced, and it's my job as a public educator to make sure their kids are indoctrinated with my sexual mores instead"?

It is remarkable how many people think anyone can teach,

True enough.

People have the right to educate at home and home educators have to comply with publicly -accredited standards of method and curriculum.

Well, yes...but the latter get full public funding, professionalism, and resources from the public purse; and the former are left all on their own, while still having to make a living. So it's nowhere near a level playing field.

But still, there are some parents who are (rightly) so sick of the propagandizing of the public school system that they will bear that financial burden, train themselves, and raise and teach their own children, at considerable personal sacrifice. So it does happen.

That is democracy for you; imperfect but better than the alternative.
I have a tertiary qualification in education so I have read the books and used the knowledge in classrooms.At no stage of education in British state maintained schools is education confused with propaganda. At higher levels students are taught about propaganda. Either your experience as a student is unfortunate or you are trying to rationalise your extreme right wing bias.

[henry quirk]

Indoctrination is more harmful than victimization???

Six of one, half a dozen of the other, best I can tell.

Child rape is viscerally, in-your-face, disgusting; brain washing is less obviously offensive; but both amount to the same thing: turning a person into sumthin' less than.

Friggin' slavery, both.


school

The solution is obvious: teachers ought to stick with the basics -- reading, writing, arithmetic -- and leave culture & morality to parents; alternately, close the public schools, let private systems carry the water.


LGBT is taught because LGBT exists

Lesbians, gays, bisexuals, & transvestites/transgenders surely do exist, as deviations.

They shouldn't be condemned, certainly; but they ought not be praised or excused or elevated either.

Deviations from what a majority do is not the same as immoral or illegal, but are normal family structures. It would be a great pity for some children to be taught they were better than others,as they might then become bigots or bullies.

I never said deviation was immoral.

No matter what system we use (my minarchy at one end, your socialism at the other) there's always gonna be bigots, bullies, racists, misogynists, and bad parents.

We can police action (you hit John for no damn good reason: to the penalty box with you!) but we can't police thought (you hit John cuz he's a poof: twice as much time in the penalty box for you!): the first is reasonable & moral; the second is flat-out insane & immoral.

[henry quirk]

At no stage of education in British state maintained schools is education confused with propaganda.

Good on you Brits.

Here, every damn bit of our system is propagandized (kids bein' taught what to think instead of just the neutral basics).

[Belinda]

Indoctrination is more harmful than victimization???

Six of one, half a dozen of the other, best I can tell.

Child rape is viscerally, in-your-face, disgusting; brain washing is less obviously offensive; but both amount to the same thing: turning a person into sumthin' less than.

Friggin' slavery, both.


school

The solution is obvious: teachers ought to stick with the basics -- reading, writing, arithmetic -- and leave culture & morality to parents; alternately, close the public schools, let private systems carry the water.


LGBT is taught because LGBT exists

Lesbians, gays, bisexuals, & transvestites/transgenders surely do exist, as deviations.

They shouldn't be condemned, certainly; but they ought not be praised or excused or elevated either.

Deviations from what a majority do is not the same as immoral or illegal, but are normal family structures. It would be a great pity for some children to be taught they were better than others,as they might then become bigots or bullies.

I never said deviation was immoral.

No matter what system we use (my minarchy at one end, your socialism at the other) there's always gonna be bigots, bullies, racists, misogynists, and bad parents.

We can police action (you hit John for no damn good reason: to the penalty box with you!) but we can't police thought (you hit John cuz he's a poof: twice as much time in the penalty box for you!): the first is reasonable & moral; the second is flat-out insane & immoral.

I know you did not say deviation is immoral. It's the struggle for equality that matters."there's always gonna be bigots, bullies, racists, misogynists, and bad parents." is true and it is a struggle to stop these becoming the norm,
I don't know how penalties for hate crime compare with penalties for hooliganism.

[henry quirk]

Deviations from what a majority do is not the same as immoral or illegal, but are normal family structures. It would be a great pity for some children to be taught they were better than others,as they might then become bigots or bullies.

I never said deviation was immoral.

No matter what system we use (my minarchy at one end, your socialism at the other) there's always gonna be bigots, bullies, racists, misogynists, and bad parents.

We can police action (you hit John for no damn good reason: to the penalty box with you!) but we can't police thought (you hit John cuz he's a poof: twice as much time in the penalty box for you!): the first is reasonable & moral; the second is flat-out insane & immoral.

I know you did not say deviation is immoral. It's the struggle for equality that matters."there's always gonna be bigots, bullies, racists, misogynists, and bad parents." is true and it is a struggle to stop these becoming the norm,
I don't know how penalties for hate crime compare with penalties for hooliganism.

They're not the norm: never have been, never will be.

That monster is a mouse shadow on the wall.

And: no, equality is not the goal, freedom is.

Which is preferable...

We all have to sit in the mud equally...

...or...

...we each, as we individually choose, can sit in the mud or stand or move about on dry land.

Your Harrison Bergeron socialism dictates the first (or, in the least, it dictates that any who climb out of the muck must carry another on his back).

[Belinda]

At no stage of education in British state maintained schools is education confused with propaganda.

Good on you Brits.

Here, every damn bit of our system is propagandized (kids bein' taught what to think instead of just the neutral basics).

The British system on the whole remains unequal due to the attractions for rich parents to fee paying schools where the very existence of such schools is predicted on rich people being better than poor people.

It's fine for rich people to be able to buy luxuries for themselves and their kids, but it is bad that their kids come to believe they have the right to privileged education because their parents are rich.
I find it hard to credit American schools are as you say. I know or have known only five Americans or people who have lived there, and they were not propagandised, far from it. One is an illustrator, one was a prof of anthropology, one is a teacher in Los Angeles, one is a cook, one is a sociologist, and one worked in business computer systems (don't ask ).One of my school chums was an American and she was really normal. Moreover, some American universities are the best in the world.
At least two of the contributors to these forums are Americans who are far from propagandised.

[Immanuel Can]

That is democracy for you; imperfect but better than the alternative.

But democracy is a governmental system. It's not a way marriages and families work.

Imagine a family in which the mother was simply always outvoted by her children and husband. Would you say, "That's a family for you; imperfect, but better than everybody having a voice"?

Child-rearing is a family function, not a governmental one. The government has no right to usurp the authority of parents, and transfer it to itself, even if the democratic majority doesn't happen to like what the family is like -- even if it's Muslim.

I have a tertiary qualification in education so I have read the books and used the knowledge in classrooms.

I was right. You've got only a modicum of knowledge in this area. I do have more, for certain. Not that I need to say so, because whether I'm right or wrong about this doesn't depend on that. It just depends on what's the case.

But you didn't answer my questions. And I think it's pretty obvious why you didn't. Public education is propagandizing. It excuses itself by making the claim that it's always teaching the truth, so the truth can't be propaganda. But doesn't everybody always think their own beliefs are the truth? After all, if they knew their current beliefs were not the truth, in what sense could we say they really "believed" them at all?

You believe your beliefs cannot be propaganda, even if you force LGBTness or some other agenda in which you believe upon Muslim parents. You probably even think that doing that is ultimately doing them a favor. You certainly think it's the right thing to do, because otherwise, you wouldn't advocate it, would you?

[Belinda]

I never said deviation was immoral.

No matter what system we use (my minarchy at one end, your socialism at the other) there's always gonna be bigots, bullies, racists, misogynists, and bad parents.

We can police action (you hit John for no damn good reason: to the penalty box with you!) but we can't police thought (you hit John cuz he's a poof: twice as much time in the penalty box for you!): the first is reasonable & moral; the second is flat-out insane & immoral.

I know you did not say deviation is immoral. It's the struggle for equality that matters."there's always gonna be bigots, bullies, racists, misogynists, and bad parents." is true and it is a struggle to stop these becoming the norm,
I don't know how penalties for hate crime compare with penalties for hooliganism.

They're not the norm: never have been, never will be.

That monster is a mouse shadow on the wall.

And: no, equality is not the goal, freedom is.

Which is preferable...

We all have to sit in the mud equally...

...or...

...we each, as we individually choose, can sit in the mud or stand or move about on dry land.

Your Harrison Bergeron socialism dictates the first (or, in the least, it dictates that any who climb out of the muck must carry another on his back).

That is quite clever but only part true. People who succeed on their own merits need successful others.

Individual freedom and equality in their radical manifestations are mutually exclusive. I am not a radical.I think both are good, and that the more that natural resources are stretched, the more equality should take precedence over individual freedom. Think of these Wild West stories where as the West became more and more colonised by white men, there had to be laws to protect the small farmers against the large successful ranchers.
I don't aim for equality of outcome, Immanuel, I aim for equality of opportunity.

[Immanuel Can]

hate crime

Your Harrison Bergeron socialism dictates the first (or, in the least, it dictates that any who climb out of the muck must carry another on his back).

Heh. One quotation from Orwell, and one from Harrison Bergeron in the same post. Ironically, B. doesn't seem to know that "hate crime" is an Orwellian nightmare of an idea -- the idea that you could be charged or persecuted just for having an opinion or emotion about something.

But that's what Lefties think. They think that "hate" is a "crime." It's not, of course, just as you say. "Hurtful action" is a crime...and "to the penalty box with you," if you do it, just as you say.

But one can't indict someone for feeling "hate" or holding an opinion one doesn't like, without becoming an Orwellian dictator oneself.

[Immanuel Can]

Individual freedom and equality in their radical manifestations are mutually exclusive.

You've got that right. If we aim for "equality of outcome," then it automatically entails the end of freedom. Because freedom produces inequalities of outcome, every time.

The only way to achieve "equality of outcome" is the Harrison Bergeron government, which suppresses all freedom, all achievement, all excellence, all personal expression, all inventiveness, and even all intelligence.

[Belinda]

That is democracy for you; imperfect but better than the alternative.

But democracy is a governmental system. It's not a way marriages and families work.

Imagine a family in which the mother was simply always outvoted by her children and husband. Would you say, "That's a family for you; imperfect, but better than everybody having a voice"?

Child-rearing is a family function, not a governmental one. The government has no right to usurp the authority of parents, and transfer it to itself, even if the democratic majority doesn't happen to like what the family is like -- even if it's Muslim.

I have a tertiary qualification in education so I have read the books and used the knowledge in classrooms.

I was right. You've got only a modicum of knowledge in this area. I do have more, for certain. Not that I need to say so, because whether I'm right or wrong about this doesn't depend on that. It just depends on what's the case.

But you didn't answer my questions. And I think it's pretty obvious why you didn't. Public education is propagandizing. It excuses itself by making the claim that it's always teaching the truth, so the truth can't be propaganda. But doesn't everybody always think their own beliefs are the truth? After all, if they knew their current beliefs were not the truth, in what sense could we say they really "believed" them at all?

You believe your beliefs cannot be propaganda, even if you force LGBTness or some other agenda in which you believe upon Muslim parents. You probably even think that doing that is ultimately doing them a favor. You certainly think it's the right thing to do, because otherwise, you wouldn't advocate it, would you?

But clubs , churches, and businesses can also be democratic.
The way to separate truth from falsehood is to seek out who benefits. In public affairs such as state maintained education in a democratic nation the aim is benefit for all . In authoritarian structures such as traditional Islamic family values the aim is the prosperity and honour of the family or the tribe.

[commonsense]

You can ask which is worse but why not ask why either of them are considered evil?

You’re the one who started with “worse”.

[Immanuel Can]

But clubs , churches, and businesses can also be democratic.

Families cannot. That's the point.

In public affairs such as state maintained education in a democratic nation the aim is benefit for all .

Yes, that's the lie they tell themselves, of course. In point of fact, the goal of state-maintained education is actually control. It's to "shape the next generation of citizens" to be what the government wants them to be, or finds it useful for them to be...even in defiance of what the parents may or may not want.

[Nick_A]

You can ask which is worse but why not ask why either of them are considered evil?

You’re the one who started with “worse”.

Yes, I asked is there anything worse than indoctrination. But the logical question is why indoctrination or pedophelia is considered evil or bad to begin with. But this raises the question of the purpose of education as opposed to what to educate

The LGBT question is good example. It is argued from the progressive perspective of what to teach but avoids the question of the purpose of education

The “many”’s worry about the inadequacy of knowledge to ensure virtuous action suggests that virtuous character includes not only a cognitive element, but also some affective element. Both Plato and Aristotle argue that virtuous character requires a distinctive combination of cognitive and affective elements. In the Republic, Plato divides the soul into three parts and gives to each a different kind of desire (rational, appetitive, or spirited). As types of non-rational desire, appetitive and spirited desires can conflict with our rational desires about what contributes to our overall good, and they will sometimes move us to act in ways we recognize to be against our greater good. When that happens, we are incontinent. To be virtuous, then, we must both understand what contributes to our overall good and have our spirited and appetitive desires educated properly, so that they agree with the guidance provided by the rational part of the soul. Plato describes the education of the non-rational parts of the soul in Books II and III of the Republic. A potentially virtuous person learns when young to love and take pleasure in virtuous actions, but must wait until late in life to develop the understanding that explains why what he loves is good. Once he has learned what the good is, his informed love of the good explains why he acts as he does and why his actions are virtuous.

The purpose of education is to allow the lower parts of the soul to become balanced so that later on the rational or higher parts of the soul can remember its natural love of the GOOD. The result is "character."

Of course it isn't wanted. The world prefers the struggle between the various beliefs of the Great Beast rather than efforts towards acquiring character. The purpose of education is lost in favor of the struggle over opposing indoctrinted beliefs.