Philosophy Now Forum

Belinda wrote: ↑Tue Nov 03, 2020 11:02 am As quoted by Veritas Aequinas:

Quran 3:28 [Pickthall] Let not the believers take disbelievers for their friends in preference to believers. Whoso doeth that hath no connection with Allah unless (it be) that ye but guard yourselves against them, taking (as it were) security. Allah biddeth you beware (only) of Himself. Unto Allah is the journeying.

That is good advice for anybody who seeks the good, the true, and the beautiful, whether or no they are medieval Arabians.

How did you come to conclusion the above is good, the true and the beautiful?
Something is very wrong here.

Allah commanded all Muslims not to befriend non-Muslims, the disbelievers.
This is in contrast to Jesus's 'love all even enemies'.

As I had stated there are loads of verses that command Muslims to hate, dehumanize non-Muslims culminating in killing non-Muslims for the slightest threats to Islam.
How could you conclude the above is good advice re the good, the true the beautiful??

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Tue Nov 03, 2020 11:25 am

Belinda wrote: ↑Tue Nov 03, 2020 11:02 am As quoted by Veritas Aequinas:

Quran 3:28 [Pickthall] Let not the believers take disbelievers for their friends in preference to believers. Whoso doeth that hath no connection with Allah unless (it be) that ye but guard yourselves against them, taking (as it were) security. Allah biddeth you beware (only) of Himself. Unto Allah is the journeying.

That is good advice for anybody who seeks the good, the true, and the beautiful, whether or no they are medieval Arabians.

How did you come to conclusion the above is good, the true and the beautiful?
Something is very wrong here.

Allah commanded all Muslims not to befriend non-Muslims, the disbelievers.
This is in contrast to Jesus's 'love all even enemies'.

As I had stated there are loads of verses that command Muslims to hate, dehumanize non-Muslims culminating in killing non-Muslims for the slightest threats to Islam.
How could you conclude the above is good advice re the good, the true the beautiful??

How did you come to conclusion the above is good, the true and the beautiful?

Muhammad was immersed in modernising the medieval Arabian justice system where vendetta was normal. Muhammad may or may not have had a universalist attitude, and I don't think we can ever know if he was legislating for Arabs or for all people for all time.

Today's moralists are free to extract from medieval texts and any texts what seems to be the kernel of truth if it be there at all. Those of any religious persuasion or none who try to swallow the whole nut, husk and all, are naive , divisive, and possibly dangerous.

Belinda wrote: ↑Tue Nov 03, 2020 11:02 am
You think idols are statues and such like material objects. Then you are a naive literalist. Idolatry is probably the biggest sin Muslims can commit. But not only for Muslims. Worshipping any material thing is stupid whether it is a holy statue or an expensive car. But idolatry is more than worship of a material thing.

Please Belinda, I didn't say that the worshiping of statues was the only form of idolatry. Indeed, there are several forms of idolatry. And the worshiping of statues or any other created thing is a major form of idolatry which we have to remove from our lives immediately. Indeed, it is extremely stupid to worship the creation instead of the Creator, the Almighty. We agree 100% here. That's why I am encouraging all those willing, to destroy all statues that are their property. Exodus 20:3-4 is very clear on this and leaves no room for ambiguity.

• 3 “You shall have no other gods before me.
  4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. [Exodus 20:3-4]

Belinda wrote: ↑Tue Nov 03, 2020 11:02 am If you worship your holy book or your holy prophet you are committing idolatry.To submit to Allah means you worship Allah alone.

Muslims do not worship any prophet of God, the Almighty. Indeed, only Allah, the Almighty is worshipped in Islam. And neither do we worship Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) nor do we worship Prophet Jesus(PBUH). Furthermore, Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) strictly forbade to exaggerate in praising him.

• Narrated `Umar: I heard the Prophet (ﷺ) saying, "Do not exaggerate in praising me as the Christians praised the son of Mary, for I am only a Slave. So, call me the Slave of Allah and His Apostle."[Sahih al-Bukhari 3445]

But can you please clarify what you understand by "worshiping a book"? I want to understand your perspective on this. For example, suppose I have a book on mathematics and I read it often and practices the exercises and proofs therein. Is that worshiping the book according to you?

Belinda wrote: ↑Tue Nov 03, 2020 11:02 am

Quran 3:28 [Pickthall] Let not the believers take disbelievers for their friends in preference to believers. Whoso doeth that hath no connection with Allah unless (it be) that ye but guard yourselves against them, taking (as it were) security. Allah biddeth you beware (only) of Himself. Unto Allah is the journeying.

That is good advice for anybody who seeks the good, the true, and the beautiful, whether or no they are medieval Arabians.

You replied to him correctly on this. If you allow me a humble suggestion now, don't waste time with him. Everyone here knows that he is way too stupid and ignorant to understand anything. Of course, it's up to you. I am only suggesting.

Averroes wrote:

Please Belinda, I didn't say that the worshiping of statues was the only form of idolatry. Indeed, there are several forms of idolatry. And the worshiping of statues or any other created thing is a major form of idolatry which we have to remove from our lives immediately. Indeed, it is extremely stupid to worship the creation instead of the Creator, the Almighty. We agree 100% here. That's why I am encouraging all those willing, to destroy all statues that are their property. Exodus 20:3-4 is very clear on this and leaves no room for ambiguity.
3 “You shall have no other gods before me.
4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. [Exodus 20:3-4]

There is nothing wrong with statues, except for what they might symbolise. Some people who hate slavery toppled a statue of a slave merchant into the nearby harbour because slavery is immoral. However statues that are used as aids to prayer, or statues that are for enjoying the beauty of their forms are often valuable works of art. Averroes mistakes the artefact for what it symbolises. The Muslim Taliban destroyed ancient statues of the Buddha. Do you, Averroes, approve of that destruction?

Belinda wrote: ↑Tue Nov 03, 2020 5:42 pm Averroes wrote:

Please Belinda, I didn't say that the worshiping of statues was the only form of idolatry. Indeed, there are several forms of idolatry. And the worshiping of statues or any other created thing is a major form of idolatry which we have to remove from our lives immediately. Indeed, it is extremely stupid to worship the creation instead of the Creator, the Almighty. We agree 100% here. That's why I am encouraging all those willing, to destroy all statues that are their property. Exodus 20:3-4 is very clear on this and leaves no room for ambiguity.
3 “You shall have no other gods before me.
4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. [Exodus 20:3-4]

There is nothing wrong with statues, except for what they might symbolise. Some people who hate slavery toppled a statue of a slave merchant into the nearby harbour because slavery is immoral. However statues that are used as aids to prayer, or statues that are for enjoying the beauty of their forms are often valuable works of art. Averroes mistakes the artefact for what it symbolises. The Muslim Taliban destroyed ancient statues of the Buddha. Do you, Averroes, approve of that destruction?

I do not share your point of view then. For me, if God the Almighty forbids something like the making of whatever statues, then it's wrong to go against His explicit commands. Afghanistan is a sovereign country, and the rulers decide how to rule their country and use their property. If someone wants to destroy their property which rightfully belongs to them, isn't it their right according to you? Should they have taken your permission? If so on what ground?

But please, can you address the following that I posted previously:
But can you please clarify what you understand by "worshiping a book"? I want to understand your perspective on this. For example, suppose I have a book on mathematics and I read it often and practices the exercises and proofs therein. Is that worshiping the book according to you?

Averroes, the Taliban don't rule Afghanistan. Even if Taliban did rule Afghanistan they would be wrong if they isolated themselves from world heritage by claiming right to destroy what does not belong to them. This is why I urge you to follow the greater, not the lesser, jihad.You are on dangerous ground. Try to see the bigger picture.

All books are written by men including the Koran and The Bible. It is gross superstition to believe that God literally communicated with either Moses or Muhammad. Allah is not the Koran and the Koran is not Allah. Try to see that Muhammad was a real person in a real place, and not some magical person that miracles happen to.

If you believe Gabriel intervened to dictate to Muhammad you are no better than those superstitious Christian peasant girls who saw the Virgin Mary.

Belinda wrote: ↑Tue Nov 03, 2020 6:34 pm Averroes, the Taliban don't rule Afghanistan.

Make your research on this. When the statues were destroyed, the Taliban were the rulers of Afghanistan and the statues were destroyed by the approval of the then government of Afghanistan in it's rightful exercise of the sovereignty of state principle of international law.

Belinda wrote: ↑Tue Nov 03, 2020 6:34 pm Even if Taliban did rule Afghanistan they would be wrong if they isolated themselves from world heritage by claiming right to destroy what does not belong to them.

They did rule Afghanistan at that time. Under the principle of sovereignty of state, the statues belonged to Afghanistan, and they could destroy it legally from an international law point of view.

Belinda wrote: ↑Tue Nov 03, 2020 6:34 pm You are on dangerous ground.

I'll be cautious then! Don't worry about me, I'll be fine, God willing.

Belinda wrote: ↑Tue Nov 03, 2020 6:34 pm It is gross superstition to believe that God literally communicated with either Moses or Muhammad.

It's your right to believe that but we disagree on that point too. As for me, it is absolutely certain that God, the Almighty communicated directly to prophet Moses(PBUH), and communicated to Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) through Angel Gabriel (PBUH). I also believe that God,the Almighty communicated also to Prophet Jesus (PBUH) through Angel Gabriel (PBUH).

Belinda wrote: ↑Tue Nov 03, 2020 6:34 pm Allah is not the Koran and the Koran is not Allah.

The Holy Quran is the Word of Allah Who is the Creator of everything.
But can you please tell me if I can read a book on mathematics and practice the exercises therein without being a worshipper of that book?

Believe your medieval legends if you like. I just hope you say within the law of the US.

Averroes wrote: ↑Tue Nov 03, 2020 7:19 pm The Holy Quran is the Word of Allah Who is the Creator of everything.
But can you please tell me if I can read a book on mathematics and practice the exercises therein without being a worshipper of that book?

Trivial distinction:

I know Mathematics is created by humans. Exactly like the Quran.

I praise humanity for its feat. I praise humanity for the Creation of everything that we call "knowledge". Not Allah.

The myth of Creation is so misunderstood!

Belinda wrote: ↑Tue Nov 03, 2020 7:26 pm Believe your medieval legends if you like.

It's not legends Belinda, it's the truth. Thank you for the exchange and your contribution.

Skepdick wrote: ↑Tue Nov 03, 2020 7:29 pm

Averroes wrote: ↑Tue Nov 03, 2020 7:19 pm The Holy Quran is the Word of Allah Who is the Creator of everything.
But can you please tell me if I can read a book on mathematics and practice the exercises therein without being a worshipper of that book?

Trivial distinction:

Let's take an appropriate example for you.
So you too think that I can read a book of computer science and practice the programming concepts therein without being a worshipper of that book?

Averroes wrote: ↑Tue Nov 03, 2020 7:39 pm Let's take an appropriate example for you.
So you too think that I can read a book of computer science and practice the programming concepts therein without being a worshipper of that book?

Sure. I do programming, but I am not a programmer.

I don't "worship" it. It's an instrument. One of many.

Skepdick wrote: ↑Tue Nov 03, 2020 7:41 pm

Averroes wrote: ↑Tue Nov 03, 2020 7:39 pm Let's take an appropriate example for you.
So you too think that I can read a book of computer science and practice the programming concepts therein without being a worshipper of that book?

Sure. I do programming, but I am not a programmer.

I don't "worship" it. It's an instrument. One of many.

Thank you, that's all I was asking. Thank you for your contribution.

Belinda wrote: ↑Tue Nov 03, 2020 7:26 pm Believe your medieval legends if you like. I just hope you say within the law of the US.

Belinda, seeing how Muslims are allowed to practice what is called “Taqiyya,” I have often wondered how much their words can be trusted?

According to Wiki:

Wiki wrote: Yarden Mariuma, sociologist at Columbia University, writes: "Taqiyya is an Islamic juridical term whose shifting meaning relates to when a Muslim is allowed, under Sharia law, to lie.

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