Philosophy Now Forum

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Feb 08, 2020 11:32 pm This conversation fits into the category "things that waste time" -- in which you do not believe. Just like the category "mutable things," -- in which you must also not believe.

Of course it fits into those categories. Because that's how you are choosing to categorize it.

This conversation ALSO fits somewhere on the continuum of things which waste between 0 and 24 hours of my life.
And mutable things fit somewhere on the continuum of things that are mutable with 0 effort and things which are mutable only after years of effort.

Notice how you are choosing to think in categories instead of continuums.

You are Buridan's ass.

There's the category of "food" and the category of "water". And you have no idea how to put them into the categories of "more important for survival" and "less important for survival"

So you die.

Skepdick wrote: ↑Sat Feb 08, 2020 11:41 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Feb 08, 2020 11:32 pm This conversation fits into the category "things that waste time" -- in which you do not believe. Just like the category "mutable things," -- in which you must also not believe.

Of course it fits into those categories. Because that's how you are choosing to categorize it.

No, you were...the person who claims not to believe in categories.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Feb 08, 2020 11:45 pm No, you were...the person who claims not to believe in categories.

No, I am the person who claims that I don't use the language "I believe in..."

Maybe you can explain to me how you use that word?

Do you believe in your toilet? I don't "believe in " the things I use - I just use them.

Skepdick wrote: ↑Sat Feb 08, 2020 11:50 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Feb 08, 2020 11:45 pm No, you were...the person who claims not to believe in categories.

No, I am the person who claims that I don't use the language "I believe in..."

Maybe you can explain to me how you use that word?

No thanks. I can just refer to your own functional synonyms, like "exist," or "realism." Whichever of your own words we use, the problem will not change; that you argue they're all "arbitrary" and infinitely "mutable." And that's silly, because even "mutable things" is a category, and not an arbitrary one. Things that do not change are not "mutable things," and things that do change are.

Dead easy, that one. So it's a clear counter case to your statement that all these things are merely "arbitrary" or "mutable."

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Feb 08, 2020 11:55 pm Things that do not change are not "mutable things," and things that do change are.

That's a great classification rule!

Now go ahead and populate your categories with things that a naive realist (like Henry) might label as "real".

I am particularly curious what you are going to put into the "things that don't change" category...

Give me a referent external to your mind.

The Serenity prayer is ALL about mutability!

No, wrong again.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serenity_Prayer

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sun Feb 09, 2020 12:07 am The Serenity prayer is ALL about mutability!

No, wrong again.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serenity_Prayer

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference.

CHANGE, Henry! CHANGE.

Mutability is change!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immutable_object
an immutable object (unchangeable object) is an object whose state cannot be modified after it is created This is in contrast to a mutable object (changeable object).

Right again. This "dry land" of yours is looking more and more like a swamp.

...don't populate your categories with things that a naive realist (like Henry) might label as "real".

Instead, recognize what's real then name it.

That's how categorization works.

CHANGE, Henry! CHANGE.

Change what? Reality or one's relationship with god?

Damn, dry land is good.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sun Feb 09, 2020 12:13 am Instead, recognize what's real then name it.

Reality is real, Harry - and everything in it.

Which includes all your thoughts, feelings and emotions. There is nothing in reality that's not real.
There is nothing that you can recognise, think, feel, and dream or imagine that's not real.

There is literally nothing you can provide in a way of example of things that are "not real".

That's why "real" and "not real" are stupid categories.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sun Feb 09, 2020 12:16 am Change what? Reality or one's relationship with god?

Read it Harry.

it's only 3 lines.

Skepdick wrote: ↑Sun Feb 09, 2020 12:22 am

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sun Feb 09, 2020 12:16 am Change what? Reality or one's relationship with god?

Read it Harry.

it's only 3 lines.

wrong again...

God, grant me the Serenity
To accept the things I cannot change...
Courage to change the things I can,
And Wisdom to know the difference.

Living one day at a time,
Enjoying one moment at a time,
Accepting hardship as the pathway to peace.
Taking, as He did, this sinful world as it is,
Not as I would have it.
Trusting that He will make all things right
if I surrender to His will.
That I may be reasonably happy in this life,
And supremely happy with Him forever in the next.
Amen.

My bad, Harry.

I thought you can count, maybe I was mistaken.
I am going to put the line numbers for you and put the word CHANGE in bright red colors so you can't miss it. OK?

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sun Feb 09, 2020 12:25 am Line 1: God, grant me the Serenity
Lint 2: accept the things I cannot change...
Line 3: Courage to change the things I can

It's the same damn three lines I quoted for you:

Skepdick wrote: ↑Sun Feb 09, 2020 12:09 am God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference.

You really are like a baby. Who holds your hand when you go to the bathroom?

Skepdick wrote: ↑Sun Feb 09, 2020 12:21 am

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sun Feb 09, 2020 12:13 am Instead, recognize what's real then name it.

Reality is real, henry - and everything in it.

Which includes all your thoughts, feelings and emotions. There is nothing in reality that's not real.

What you are recognising is only part of the whole.

That's why "real" and "not real" are stupid categories.

Unicorns aren't real. We imagine them, draw pictures of them, write stories about them. Our thoughts of them are real, our pictures of them are real, our stories about them are real, but unicorns are not real (just like men becoming women is not real)

Skepdick wrote: ↑Sun Feb 09, 2020 12:29 am My bad, Harry.

I thought you can count, maybe I was mistaken.
I am going to put the line numbers for you and put the word CHANGE in bright red colors so you can't miss it. OK?

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sun Feb 09, 2020 12:25 am Line 1: God, grant me the Serenity
Lint 2: accept the things I cannot change...
Line 3: Courage to change the things I can

You see? You only had to read THREE LINES to realize that the Serenity prayer is about mutability.

CHANGE.

Nope, it's about this...

Living one day at a time,
Enjoying one moment at a time,
Accepting hardship as the pathway to peace.
Taking, as He did, this sinful world as it is,
Not as I would have it.
Trusting that He will make all things right
if I surrender to His will.
That I may be reasonably happy in this life,
And supremely happy with Him forever in the next.

This here...

Taking, as He did, this sinful world as it is,
Not as I would have it.

...is especially applicable to what we're talkin' about.