Philosophy Now Forum

Greatest I am wrote:

Hobbes' Choice wrote:
GNOSTIC:a prominent heretical movement of the 2nd-century Christian Church, partly of pre-Christian origin.

True. Please remember that all religions begin as heretical sects.

I have been trying to prove that we were the Chrestians whose writings were stolen by Christians. I think we go back to Jesus' day. I have yet to succeed in this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... At-PAkgqls

Gnostic doctrine taught that the world was created and ruled by a lesser divinity, the demiurge, and that Christ was an emissary of the remote supreme divine being, esoteric knowledge (gnosis) of whom enabled the redemption of the human spirit.

False.

DL

Nope.

Dubious wrote:

seeds wrote:
Besides, ridicule is not the “only weapon” that can be used against unintelligible propositions, for it would seem to me that “intelligible” (logical) counter-propositions would be a better weapon.

Sometimes, but unintelligible propositions - mostly made by the less intelligent - are not usually amenable to be corrected by its opposite. This much is clear on Philosophy Forums.

Yes, that’s surely true.

Nevertheless, in my naive hopefulness, I always go by the thinking that no matter how dry, or barren, or weed infested the ground is in which you plant a seed, there’s always a slim possibility that somewhere down the line it might sprout and take root.
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Greatest I am wrote: Logic and reason have limited use when dealing with the mentally handicapped...

Again you offer your humiliating insults toward humans who are innocently stuck in a state of mind that perhaps you yourself were once stuck in prior to your escaping it.

Do you also belittle and insult toddlers for their ignorance of worldly affairs?

seeds wrote: Someone as intelligent as you should be able to understand that no one is following “immoral Gods” in any literal sense."

Greatest I am wrote: True but to deny that they are following the thinking of immoral Gods would be wrong. Unless you do not believe in equality under the law and like genocidal children murdering Gods and think that to be moral.

Again, we are not talking about the “thinking of immoral Gods.”

We are talking about the thinking (the phantasmagorical imaginings) of ancient humans who were completely immersed in a mythological mindset as they blindly speculated about the reasons for their existence.

Your intense repugnance of the content of those ancient imaginings is simply a sign that they have run their course, which means that we need to come up with some new and better (more elevated and logical) imaginings to work in parity with our modern and elevated understanding of the universe...

...(hint: the Gnostic Christianity that you have described ain't gonna cut it).

DL, you need to wake up and realize that everyone is doing the best they can under the conditions of the indoctrination they received depending on where and when they awakened into life on this cosmic orb.

Some of us, through a variety of methods and circumstances (near death experiences, meditation, consciousness-raising acid trips, etc.) are able to break away from the "gravitational pull" of that indoctrination, while others are not.

The point is, stop insulting those who are still stuck in a less enlightened state of mind, for it could just as easily be you - still stuck there along with them.

(I will address the rest of your post regarding Gnostic Christianity later on.)
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sorry, duplicate post.

Greatest I am wrote: When you can name your God, I am, and mean yourself, you will begin to know the only God you will ever find. Becoming a God is to become more fully human and a brethren to Jesus.

In your description of Gnostic Christianity, I do not find anything within its tenets that even remotely explains how the order of the universe came about.

From that perspective, are you siding with materialism’s view that the universe is a product of chance?
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seeds wrote:

Greatest I am wrote: When you can name your God, I am, and mean yourself, you will begin to know the only God you will ever find. Becoming a God is to become more fully human and a brethren to Jesus.

In your description of Gnostic Christianity, I do not find anything within its tenets that even remotely explains how the order of the universe came about.

From that perspective, are you siding with materialism’s view that the universe is a product of chance?
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Indeed.

If not chance and evolution, tell us why a God would create the abominations shown in this clip.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_-nHw0 ... r_embedded

Regards
DL

seeds wrote:
In your description of Gnostic Christianity, I do not find anything within its tenets that even remotely explains how the order of the universe came about.

From that perspective, are you siding with materialism’s view that the universe is a product of chance?

Greatest I am wrote:
Indeed.

If not chance and evolution, tell us why a God would create the abominations shown in this clip.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_-nHw0 ... r_embedded

Regards
DL

In my opinion, the first problem implicit in the video clip you linked to is in the erroneous assumption that God is “directly” involved in the manifestation of human bodies (i.e., directly overseeing the process).

To me it is utter nonsense to think that God is omnisciently aware of, and thus controlling in real time, every micro aspect of the hundred-billion galaxies of this universe.

Imagine how incredibly tedious that would be.

Furthermore, no one is ruling-out evolution here.

Indeed, I suggest that the “CEO” of the universe has delegated the creation of human bodies to the mechanistic workings inherent in suns, cells, and DNA – workings that can sometimes misfire and go awry.

The second problem in the video is in the lack of realizing that the human body is nothing more than the soon to be discarded “placental-like" encasement of the “flawless entity” that is momentarily held within it (to understand what that means, please see this post here: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=19613&start=75#p275779).

Now I am not intending to sound insensitive to the tragic circumstances of the children in the video; however, the point is that far too much emphasis is being placed on their malformed bodies while completely ignoring the perfectly created eternal souls temporarily held within them.

Unfortunately, your materialistically-oriented (nihilistic) outlook on our situation is preventing you from considering the idea that at the moment of death, the “soul” (i.e., the real reason for the creation of the body in the first place) is going to be “birthed” out the body and into a new and transcendent form and context...

...(again, check out that link to understand what I mean).
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Greatest I am wrote:
Indeed.

If not chance and evolution, tell us why a God would create the abominations shown in this clip.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_-nHw0 ... r_embedded

Regards
DL

Why do you believe in God?

seeds wrote:
Indeed, I suggest that the “CEO” of the universe has delegated the creation of human bodies to the mechanistic workings inherent in suns, cells, and DNA – workings that can sometimes misfire and go awry.
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COP out.

seeds wrote:

seeds wrote:
Unfortunately, your materialistically-oriented (nihilistic) outlook on our situation is preventing you from considering the idea that at the moment of death, the “soul” (i.e., the real reason for the creation of the body in the first place) is going to be “birthed” out the body and into a new and transcendent form and context...

...(again, check out that link to understand what I mean).
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Really?

You give an unproven fantasy and chastise me for not accepting it. Pffft.

" I suggest that the “CEO” of the universe has delegated the creation of human bodies to the mechanistic workings inherent in suns, cells, and DNA – workings that can sometimes misfire and go awry."

So much for God creating perfect works.

Deuteronomy 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect

If evolution creates flaws in us then a God who would not forgive us our sins, thanks to his defective processes of creation, would be quite wrong and that is what your God is shown to do. You can have what I reject.

Regards
DL

Hobbes' Choice wrote:

Greatest I am wrote:
Indeed.

If not chance and evolution, tell us why a God would create the abominations shown in this clip.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_-nHw0 ... r_embedded

Regards
DL

Why do you believe in God?

I do not. At least not what is usually defined as a supernatural God.

To a Gnostic Christian, if I were to use the word God, basically means God defined as the best rules and laws to live by.
To us, God has always been a person and that is why we name, God I am, and really mean ourselves.

Regards
DL

Hobbes' Choice wrote:

seeds wrote:
Indeed, I suggest that the “CEO” of the universe has delegated the creation of human bodies to the mechanistic workings inherent in suns, cells, and DNA – workings that can sometimes misfire and go awry.
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COP out.

How so?
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seeds wrote: Unfortunately, your materialistically-oriented (nihilistic) outlook on our situation is preventing you from considering the idea that at the moment of death, the “soul” (i.e., the real reason for the creation of the body in the first place) is going to be “birthed” out the body and into a new and transcendent form and context...

...(again, check out that link to understand what I mean).

Greatest I am wrote:
Really?

You give an unproven fantasy and chastise me for not accepting it. Pffft.

I think it is safe to assume that any and all of our metaphysical propositions are unproven fantasies.

However, what is even more fantastical...

(and to slightly paraphrase something I stated to Greta in the “Futility of Reason” thread)

...is the idea that the blind and unconscious influence of gravity and thermodynamics was somehow able to cause random particles of matter to simply come together (for no apparent “reason”) to form this...



...which, by sheer chance, just so happens to be the “perfect setting and platform” upon which the essence of life could then “effloresce” from the very fabric of the setting itself.

The mind boggling thought that someone could believe that the unthinkably complex array of ingredients and processes implicit in the image above, along with its impossible stability could have simply “created itself” without the slightest hint of guidance or teleological impetus, is utterly ridiculous.

Trust me, DL, I am on your side when it comes to wanting to expose and eliminate the nonsense handed down to us from ancient minds.

However, settling for even greater nonsense as described above is not a logical alternative.

And lastly, if you are going to link to videos that, presumably, are meant to support your atheistic point of view, then you might want to choose your sources more carefully.

The following is a transcript of what the speaker in one of the videos you referenced said as he drew a correlation between Christ and the constellation of Aquarius:

[quote="Bill Donahue from the video "Hidden Meanings in Bible""]
“...the zodiac is real, it’s true...I’m not talking about fortune telling or nonsense. The zodiac is the twelve signs of man - it’s in the universe. God painted a picture of the Christ in the sky and you as a Christian have been afraid to look at it. It’s the man carrying the picture of water, meaning - he, the Christ that dwells within you, pouring out truth all over this universe......You see it on a Christmas card; God painted it in the sky and you’re afraid to look at it because your churches have filled you with a bunch of stuff about the evilness of it...

...we oughta get down on our knees and apologize to God for thinking that His heavenly creation is evil...”[/quote]
DL, it seems pretty obvious that Bill Donahue, the man you chose to support your argument against the existence of God, is a person who clearly implies that he himself believes that God exists.

(Btw, I like him. He has some interesting ideas and is fun to listen to, so thanks for the link.)

( I’m suddenly overwhelmed with memories of paisley shirts, bell bottom pants, patchouli incense, black light posters, and a time when the word “rap” meant having a casual conversation with my fellow hippies. )
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Yet another duplicate post (I'm having issues with editing)

sorry, another duplicate post.