sthitapragya wrote:Since you insisted on bringing this topic up on another thread, I thought let us continue this discussion here. And it just occurred to me that even what you claim is objective morality is purely subjective. You might believe that a Christian God exists, but there are other people of other religions who believe their God is the true one and the morals of their Gods are different from yours. Then there are those who do not believe that God exists and their morals are different too. Each has made a subjective decision to adopt certain morals. You just claim that yours are objective because you derived your morals from a God you believe exists. But your decision is purely subjective just as the decision of a believer of another religion calling his morals objective because they are derived from what he believes his God commanded.
You would be quite right, if certain things were true. IF, as Atheists wish us to believe, all religions are just human perspectives on non-existent things, then yes, all is subjective. And even if certain things were objectively true, but we had reason to know that nobody knew them (though, of course, that would be contradictory, since then WE would know them), then the objective truth would not save us from all having only a subjective epistemological relationship to those objective truths.
But everything changes if God speaks. For if there is an objective morality, then God alone knows what it is; but there would be absolutely no reason to think, then, that God could not choose to tell us what those objective moral standards were -- if He were to decide to do so.
And then all our "subjectivities" -- yours, mine, and everybody's would have to be measured by the objective standard of the truth of God.
The only question, then, is "Has God spoken"? You might say "No." I would say, "Yes."
Take for example Exodus 31:15 which is clear about not working on the Sabbath.
Well, we could sidetrack into a discussion of the difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant, and the difference between instructions for the Jewish People and for the Gentiles, but I'm pretty sure you'd find that a bit particular for your tastes.
Suffice it to say, the instructions for Gentile Christians are more of a guideline -- they meet on "the first day of the week" (Acts 20:7) because that's when the early Christians also met. And it's no longer a commandment that that should be the only day. So again, they're following a Biblical principle, though not the particular Jewish tradition you picked out.
A funny issue for you to choose...I doubt you're much interested in it. You're probably more concerned with how to conclusively prove to yourself I'm some kind of fraud or hypocrite, so you can dismiss my view entirely. But if so, that's merely
ad hominem, a fallacy of thinking. For even an inveterate liar is forced to tell the truth from time to time, if only to keep his lies going. So even if I were a liar, you would not be able thereby to tell yourself whether or not what I spoke
on this occasion was one of my truths or one of my falsehoods.
Instead, perhaps you should realize that under Atheism, being a liar, a fraud and a hypocrite isn't even
wrong! It's just one choice among others. All choices are morally equal, because they're all subjective.
Now, I sense you don't really believe that. But you've got to ask yourself WHY you believe it, since Atheism gives you no warrant for thinking any differently.
Well, it is a touchy subject. And I have usually seen that is it personal. I learnt it the hard way when I offended some very close friends and the damage control simply pointed out to me that what I did was classless and tasteless. Ever since then, I just avoid it. You are one of the few people in the "opposite camp" that I get along with. I would just like to keep it that way.
I crave a fertile growing medium, where I can finally be comfortable being it's student, such that "garbage in, garbage out" can be eliminated. Here, currently, the want of riches and power, by some, severely taints the growing medium. Largely it's all about control, for fear, which severely clouds the water's of knowledge and truth!
