Philosophy Now Forum

Yes Dubious, sorry, I went off track. Like everyone here, I have my little hobby horses

The Hobbs 'n Harbal show is about the power, or not, of symbolism. I see anthems as symptoms and the "disease" is patriotism. I live not far from a prestigious private school with beautiful grounds. At one stage I dated a lefty who, when I suggested a walk in those grounds, spent the entire time in apoplexy at the injustice of this school having so much while so many are deprived. He was right too; it was obscene. Nonetheless, those grounds are beautiful to walk around and the school has a rates reduction deal with the council to allow public access. Great for walking the dog too.

Still, this scrupulousness can be taken to whatever level suits an individual. I also once dated an experimental artist and writer who harshly judged music with lead voices and band hierarchies that represented the hierarchic nature of society. Experimental artists also routinely subvert the usual artistic structures deemed valuable by the elites. Marxism is very common in the experimental music field, almost to the point of cliche.

When I attend gigs, I am aware of the hierarchic structures and the metaphysical relationship that has with broader society, but I simply don't care. Deep as a puddle, I am . I just want my ears to be happy and for my mind not to be insulted by obvious inanities (unless intended, of course).

So I reject anthems on mostly aesthetic grounds, which I class with dull military music. Music of the unthinking masses that the establishment prefers. Yet, if the sound and style of the music made my ears happy, I'm sure I'd find a rationalisation for liking it.

Harbal wrote:

Lacewing wrote: What does this mean? I've never heard such a thing.

It means he's losing the argument.

...compared to something more serious?

Greta wrote:I live not far from a prestigious private school with beautiful grounds. At one stage I dated a lefty who, when I suggested a walk in those grounds, spent the entire time in apoplexy at the injustice of this school having so much while so many are deprived. He was right too; it was obscene. Nonetheless, those grounds are beautiful to walk around and the school has a rates reduction deal with the council to allow public access. Great for walking the dog too.

I wouldn't dismiss him as a 'lefty' (whatever that means), more of a loony. Beauty should be beyond political agendas. I love walking through lush, leafy suburbs too. I can't afford the houses, but that doesn't mean I can't enjoy the beauty and ambience of it. By that idiot's rationalisation, all the magnificent cathedrals and stately homes should be turned into tacky, pidgeon-hole apartments for the poor. He's actually being extremely patronising as well. Poor people are capable of appreciating beauty and being inspired by it, just like anyone else.

Greta wrote:Yes Dubious, sorry, I went off track. Like everyone here, I have my little hobby horses

Since every track has two rails, I was right beside you when it happened.

Greta wrote:The Hobbs 'n Harbal show is about the power, or not, of symbolism.

In spite of my own occassional tete-a-tete with Harbal, I agree with him more often than I appear to.

Greta wrote:When I attend gigs, I am aware of the hierarchic structures and the metaphysical relationship that has with broader society, but I simply don't care. Deep as a puddle, I am . I just want my ears to be happy and for my mind not to be insulted by obvious inanities (unless intended, of course).

I respond to what I like and inspires. Elitism or hierarchy of any kind has no place in it. The ONLY elites I acknowledge are the ones who were already conceived that way and not subsequently endowed because they were born into it granting mediocrities a princely name. It's like Beethoven himself said in a rage and rather unjustly, to one of his most loyal patrons..."What you are, you are by accident of birth; what I am, I am by myself. There are and will be a thousand princes; there is only one Beethoven."

I fell for classical in my pre-teens the only criteria being, do the sounds resonate and make room within. That was a lot of years ago when everything was new. The experience has since faded a little but still has the power to potently reaffirm its existence when I least expect it. What I'm saying is music and the world, since both move in time, should be classified in how you perceive it. The incidentals of an artifcial elitism in any form including those of politics and philosophy are simply not relevant to the experience.

Greta wrote:So I reject anthems on mostly aesthetic grounds, which I class with dull military music..

I don't! There are "a few" national anthems that sound great given the right performance besides which an anthem can be a musical ode to anything but usually it's to Saint Cecilia.

There is also some first class military music out there. Just because it's modified by the word "military" doesn't imply that the music is lousy.

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:I love walking through lush, leafy suburbs too. I can't afford the houses, but that doesn't mean I can't enjoy the beauty and ambience of it. By that idiot's rationalisation, all the magnificent cathedrals and stately homes should be turned into tacky, pidgeon-hole apartments for the poor.

That's the bottom line, though he wasn't an idiot so much as overly intense. In my experience school teachers tend to be tightly wound. Hard to blame them, really

I've known some intimidatingly intense musicians too. Musicians like Coltrane and John McLaughlin brought us to the logical conclusion of extreme musical intensity, where the playing of music becomes a spiritual quest.

Harbal wrote:

Lacewing wrote: What does this mean? I've never heard such a thing.

It means he's losing the argument.

It means that the debate is so empty and the time is so late, that I was failling asleep at the keyboard.

Greta wrote:

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:I love walking through lush, leafy suburbs too. I can't afford the houses, but that doesn't mean I can't enjoy the beauty and ambience of it. By that idiot's rationalisation, all the magnificent cathedrals and stately homes should be turned into tacky, pidgeon-hole apartments for the poor.

That's the bottom line, though he wasn't an idiot so much as overly intense. In my experience school teachers tend to be tightly wound. Hard to blame them, really

I've known some intimidatingly intense musicians too. Musicians like Coltrane and John McLaughlin brought us to the logical conclusion of extreme musical intensity, where the playing of music becomes a spiritual quest.

I've met plenty of idiot school teachers, not many intense ones.

Lacewing wrote:

Hobbes' Choice wrote:So fuck the fuck of you

What does this mean? I've never heard such a thing.

Hobbes does some great typos. Here's a gem from the 'banned in the USA' thread: 'Gods are naturally gregarious and bond freely with humans and all other dogs.' Love that.

Greta wrote: At one stage I dated a lefty

As we're in the mood for anecdotes: When I was a scruffy long haired youth, as apposed to a scruffy white haired old git -my present state- I used to go to a youth club, frequented predominantly by leather jacket motor bike types. One night the club was laid siege to by a sizeable mob of skinheads on their buzzy little scooters. They surrounded the place, banging on the windows and kicking at the doors, most of them seemed to have fully mastered the art of the vicious snarl. Probably achieved by practicing for hours in the mirror. In the end, they must have got bored and went away without causing too much damage but they sure gave me one hell hell of a fright. Anyway, the point is, for several years after that, I hated reggae music with a vengeance, for no other reason that it was associated with skinheads. I'm okay now, the sound of it no longer brings me out in a cold sweat. So, I know what Hobbes is getting at but my feelings about reggae were purely because of the connection that I imposed on the music, not because of anything intrinsic within it. Music is probably the most abstract of art forms, what it represents is up to the listener.

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:

Lacewing wrote:

Hobbes' Choice wrote:So fuck the fuck of you

What does this mean? I've never heard such a thing.

Hobbes does some great typos. Here's a gem from the 'banned in the USA' thread: 'Gods are naturally gregarious and bond freely with humans and all other dogs.' Love that.

Dyslexia and poor eyesight can have its problems when typing late at night.
Thanks for the sympathy.

Harbal wrote:So, I know what Hobbes is getting at but my feelings about reggae were purely because of the connection that I imposed on the music, not because of anything intrinsic within it. Music is probably the most abstract of art forms, what it represents is up to the listener.

Yes, I can see how that would put you off.

I guess sound is a more "primitive" sense, and gets under your skin more than visuals. You can turn away from an offensive visual. Even more subjective and pervasive, arts that relate to taste and smell like cooking and perfumery have especially strong affects? Smell is famous for its ability to evoke memories. Makes you wonder what is fundamental in us.

Greta wrote:

Harbal wrote:So, I know what Hobbes is getting at but my feelings about reggae were purely because of the connection that I imposed on the music, not because of anything intrinsic within it. Music is probably the most abstract of art forms, what it represents is up to the listener.

Yes, I can see how that would put you off.

I guess sound is a more "primitive" sense, and gets under your skin more than visuals. You can turn away from an offensive visual. Even more subjective and pervasive, arts that relate to taste and smell like cooking and perfumery have especially strong affects? Smell is famous for its ability to evoke memories. Makes you wonder what is fundamental in us.

Though folks like to think each is unique, human bodies actually share limited similar repertoires of emotion (musical meaning) in response to harmonic resonance set to hummin by vibrations in throat or the inorganic.

Both the infinite and death only exist for the living as either imaginative thoughts (relativism), or as the timeless moment of non-existence that is emptiness, a.k.a. the non-cognitive awareness upon which perception rides (non-duality), and which precedes the dualistic interpretation required for existence in any world, including the imaginative world of relativism.

Harbal wrote: Music is probably the most abstract of art forms, what it represents is up to the listener.

There are limits. Music has been very important to British youth culture since 1950 - 2000. I think it's all pretty sanitised now. But musical types go with sub culture groupings as a way of belonging. and you can no more separate music from its roots and association as you can interpret the National Anthem of the UK as the joy of the Germanic fatherland.
Your clumsy attempt to do so was because I associated Copeland with the American WEST. Oh please!! How ridiculous of me to associate "Appalactian Spring" and "Rodeo" with the American West. Or the fact that he has been used again and again as the incidental music to several Western films. What could I have been thinking of.

And for an encore I've obviously made a huge mistake associating "Legalise It", by Peter Tosh as standing is some sort of support for smoking Cannabis!! Please forgive me!

Hobbes' Choice wrote: Your clumsy attempt to do so was because I associated Copeland with the American WEST.

You are entitled to associate whatever you want with whatever you want. Of course I also associate it with cowboy films and, as it happens, don't like it very much but that's not because it offends me in any way, it is because I find it incredibly corny. You can't expect people who actually like that sort of music to turn their back on it just because it has negative associations for you. If that principle were applied universally, none of us would be allowed to listen to any music at all.

Harbal wrote:

Hobbes' Choice wrote: You can't expect people who actually like that sort of music to turn their back on it just because it has negative associations for you.l.

Are you insane? When did I even hint at this? You are allowing your imagination to run away with you.