Philosophy Now Forum

alpha wrote: the point i was trying to make is that i object to my coming into existence.

Yes, you've made this very clear. You object! So now what? Are you going to thrash around in discontent?

If you were to compare yourself to the many people in extraordinarily difficult circumstances who have still found value and joy for themselves in this life they've been dealt, what do you think the difference is? That you're smarter to realize what a bum deal it is? Or could it be that they are better able to access a range of states of mind for living it out? Do you have access to other states of mind?

Lacewing wrote:Yes, you've made this very clear. You object! So now what? Are you going to thrash around in discontent?

If you were to compare yourself to the many people in extraordinarily difficult circumstances who have still found value and joy for themselves in this life they've been dealt, what do you think the difference is? That you're smarter to realize what a bum deal it is? Or could it be that they are better able to access a range of states of mind for living it out? Do you have access to other states of mind?

each person can only do what they were designed and programmed to do; no more no less. i was designed to be an "all or nothing" individual. if i can't have the 100%, 5%, 10% or 15% certainly won't do.

alpha wrote: i was designed to be an "all or nothing" individual.

Is it possible that you've not yet seen all that's in your design?

alpha wrote:i was designed to be an "all or nothing" individual.

Lacewing wrote:Is it possible that you've not yet seen all that's in your design?

yes, but very unlikely at this point.

alpha wrote:from what i know, they generally divide determinism into two categories: hard/strict determinism, and soft determinism a.k.a compatibilism.

This statement is false. There are indeed two categories of determinism but these are non-technical definitions of these categories.

Linear determinism is applied to entities which have been caused to come into existence in accordance with a design or plan. A spider's web, a bird's nest, an automobile and a reality TV show are examples of linearly determined physical entities, and such entities cannot occur in nature in the absence of a mind to cause them to occur.

Non-linear determinism, sometimes known as chaotic determinism, is applied to all other physical entities in the universe, such as stars, planets, galaxies and biospheres. These come into existence in accordance with no plan and are beholden to no law beyond the law of cause and effect, as proven in General Relativity and as represented by the inversely logarithmic relationship between gravity and time. Over vast reaches of time matter and energy in the cosmos cohere into increasingly more complex physical structures solely because of this gravity/time relationship, and they do this for the simple reason that they cannot do otherwise, so this process is known as SELF-CAUSATION. No intelligent designer is required in the case of non-linear determinism.

I trust this clarifies the matter of determinism.

alpha wrote:from what i know, they generally divide determinism into two categories: hard/strict determinism, and soft determinism a.k.a compatibilism.

Obvious Leo wrote:This statement is false. There are indeed two categories of determinism but these are non-technical definitions of these categories.

Linear determinism is applied to entities which have been caused to come into existence in accordance with a design or plan. A spider's web, a bird's nest, an automobile and a reality TV show are examples of linearly determined physical entities, and such entities cannot occur in nature in the absence of a mind to cause them to occur.

Non-linear determinism, sometimes known as chaotic determinism, is applied to all other physical entities in the universe, such as stars, planets, galaxies and biospheres. These come into existence in accordance with no plan and are beholden to no law beyond the law of cause and effect, as proven in General Relativity and as represented by the inversely logarithmic relationship between gravity and time. Over vast reaches of time matter and energy in the cosmos cohere into increasingly more complex physical structures solely because of this gravity/time relationship, and they do this for the simple reason that they cannot do otherwise, so this process is known as SELF-CAUSATION. No intelligent designer is required in the case of non-linear determinism.

I trust this clarifies the matter of determinism.

do you honestly think that arising was asking about linear and non-linear determinism? what relevance would either (linear or not) have in the context of his question?

also, i think i'll start a thread that deals with some of your silly theories.

alpha wrote: also, i think i'll start a thread that deals with some of your silly theories.

Knock yourself out, but I can assure you that the theory of evolution is not my theory and the fact that creationist fruitloops like you can't understand it is possibly the reason why you find it silly.

alpha wrote: no offense, but this is a very ignorant statement;

first of all, not every adult has the option/ability to end his/her life. a quadriplegic for instance, can't even take a dump (intentionally) on his/her own, let alone do everything necessary to end their life. ...

Why do you assume the quadriplegic wishes to end their life?

i can provide many more examples and scenarios, but it's not necessary. ...

But they'll all be exceptional ones whereas you wish to apply your thoughts to all and most of them can choose to end their lives if they truly wish it.

secondly, there is such a thing as the 'self preservation' instinct. bypassing it isn't easy, and staying "alive" because of it, doesn't mean/suggest that the person prefers staying around.

Why do you think this 'set-preservation' instinct works? Because it's instinctual that existing is better than not.

thirdly, why create a mess, then expect the mess to clean itself up (if it's unhappy about it)?

What do you mean by 'why' here? You think something is actually responsible? Other than ones parents of course.

Arising_uk wrote:]Why do you assume the quadriplegic wishes to end their life?.

It's not unthinkable.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0083326/?re ... lmg_act_67

A great film ahead of its time, whose conclusions are still sadly ignored by the British Parliament.

Obviously alpha is just using this as an example of a person who might want to end their live and would find it difficult to do so unaided.

alpha wrote:no offense, but this is a very ignorant statement;

first of all, not every adult has the option/ability to end his/her life. a quadriplegic for instance, can't even take a dump (intentionally) on his/her own, let alone do everything necessary to end their life. ...

Arising_uk wrote:Why do you assume the quadriplegic wishes to end their life?

lol. i'm not saying all quadriplegics wish to end their lives, that would clearly be false. i'm saying that some do wish it, but can't accomplish it.

alpha wrote:i can provide many more examples and scenarios, but it's not necessary. ...

Arising_uk wrote:But they'll all be exceptional ones whereas you wish to apply your thoughts to all and most of them can choose to end their lives if they truly wish it.

i think there's been a misunderstanding; i'm only talking about the ones who don't wanna be here. those who do, are more than welcome to stay till the cows come home.

alpha wrote:secondly, there is such a thing as the 'self preservation' instinct. bypassing it isn't easy, and staying "alive" because of it, doesn't mean/suggest that the person prefers staying around.

Arising_uk wrote:Why do you think this 'set-preservation' instinct works? Because it's instinctual that existing is better than not.

yes, "instinctually" existing is better, but not (necessarily) logically better.

alpha wrote:thirdly, why create a mess, then expect the mess to clean itself up (if it's unhappy about it)?

Arising_uk wrote:What do you mean by 'why' here? You think something is actually responsible? Other than ones parents of course.

without getting too philosophical, i think god is responsible, first and foremost, other than that, parents, grandparents, all the way up the ancestral chain.

Hobbes' Choice wrote:Obviously alpha is just using this as an example of a person who might want to end their live and would find it difficult to do so unaided.

yes! thank you.

alpha wrote:i think god is responsible, first and foremost, other than that, parents, grandparents, all the way up the ancestral chain.

Can you feel love and compassion for everyone doing the best they know how?

alpha wrote:i think god is responsible, first and foremost, other than that, parents, grandparents, all the way up the ancestral chain.

Lacewing wrote:Can you feel love and compassion for everyone doing the best they know how?

certainly! i'm nothing if not compassionate.

I don't quite get why it makes people freaked out when someone says they think its better to not exist. So what? I also don't get why those same people think its okay to make it illegal to commit suicide. Shouldn't we all at least have say so whether we want to live or not? Who's business is it to tell others what to feel/think? Personally, I like the way people can choose to die in the movie soylent green... not a bad solution if ya ask me. Not that I want to commit suicide.

That being said, I have discovered that life is not about what is given to us (luck if you will) but more about what we take/make for ourselves.

There are times when things are working out naturally, then there are times when you have to take control to be happy...even if it's in-genuine or superficial for the moment...just to get yourself over the 'hump' of misfortune.

I am reminded of a time in my youth when I felt like I would never find love and I would never have children....something I desperately wanted so much that I was in pain. So I just said fuck it then...new plan...if I can't have kids then I'll get a red convertible! lol

fast forward 6 months and I was married to the love of my life...but even if he had not come along...I was bound and determined to 'fake' happiness. At all cost. Simply because I can't bring myself to not exist....and I don't want to dwell on the fact that I have to exist unhappy for 70+ years.

So, fuck leading a 'genuine' life...doing what is considered by most to be 'right/selfless/fucking all Gandhi and shit....some of us are not that brave. Some of us are just regular folks doing anything to get by until death.

what happened to the convertible?