Philosophy Now Forum

Posted: **Fri Nov 25, 2022 10:03 pm**

BigMike wrote: ↑Fri Nov 25, 2022 9:03 pm
attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Nov 25, 2022 8:54 pm
BigMike wrote: ↑Fri Nov 25, 2022 8:32 pm
So you're saying that the consciousness has its own brain?
No. I am saying that being conscious includes thinking and functions within the brain. Why do you keep inisisting on absurd inferrences from what I am stating?
I'm trying to get a grasp on what it is you're trying to convey here. Is it a reasonable assumption to make based on what you said that your consciousness in some way controls the way that your brain functions?

To a degree it must be so. We consciously make decisions (using our brain) which then controls aspects of the brain, for example standing up.

Since this all stems from my statement below, I thought I'd bring it back for discussion:
1. Conscious minds choose by careful consideration (analysis of qualia inputs, reflected upon ones previously acquired knowledge).

Let's say we are deciding to have a holiday. Our conscious mind carefuly considers (analyses) qualia inputs (eg reading a brochure) while reflecting (analysing) upon previously acquired knowledge (information retrieved from the brain).

Posted: **Fri Nov 25, 2022 10:24 pm**

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Nov 25, 2022 10:03 pm
BigMike wrote: ↑Fri Nov 25, 2022 9:03 pm
attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Nov 25, 2022 8:54 pm

No. I am saying that being conscious includes thinking and functions within the brain. Why do you keep inisisting on absurd inferrences from what I am stating?
I'm trying to get a grasp on what it is you're trying to convey here. Is it a reasonable assumption to make based on what you said that your consciousness in some way controls the way that your brain functions?
To a degree it must be so. We consciously make decisions (using our brain) which then controls aspects of the brain, for example standing up.

Since this all stems from my statement below, I thought I'd bring it back for discussion:
1. Conscious minds choose by careful consideration (analysis of qualia inputs, reflected upon ones previously acquired knowledge).

Let's say we are deciding to have a holiday. Our conscious mind carefuly considers (analyses) qualia inputs (eg reading a brochure) while reflecting (analysing) upon previously acquired knowledge (information retrieved from the brain).

Do you agree that "brain" could be used instead of "conscious mind" in the example you gave: Our brain carefuly considers (analyses) qualia inputs (eg reading a brochure) while reflecting (analysing) upon previously acquired knowledge (information retrieved from the brain). If that's the case, aren't you mixing up conscious mind with brain?

Posted: **Fri Nov 25, 2022 10:34 pm**

BigMike wrote: ↑Fri Nov 25, 2022 10:24 pm
attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Nov 25, 2022 10:03 pm
BigMike wrote: ↑Fri Nov 25, 2022 9:03 pm

I'm trying to get a grasp on what it is you're trying to convey here. Is it a reasonable assumption to make based on what you said that your consciousness in some way controls the way that your brain functions?
To a degree it must be so. We consciously make decisions (using our brain) which then controls aspects of the brain, for example standing up.

Since this all stems from my statement below, I thought I'd bring it back for discussion:
1. Conscious minds choose by careful consideration (analysis of qualia inputs, reflected upon ones previously acquired knowledge).

Let's say we are deciding to have a holiday. Our conscious mind carefuly considers (analyses) qualia inputs (eg reading a brochure) while reflecting (analysing) upon previously acquired knowledge (information retrieved from the brain).
Do you agree that "brain" could be used instead of "conscious mind" in the example you gave: Our brain carefuly considers (analyses) qualia inputs (eg reading a brochure) while reflecting (analysing) upon previously acquired knowledge (information retrieved from the brain). If that's the case, aren't you mixing up conscious mind with brain?

No, I think the distinction needs to be made between the material object of the brain, and part of its function which is clearly the conscious mind.

Posted: **Fri Nov 25, 2022 10:44 pm**

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Nov 25, 2022 10:34 pm
BigMike wrote: ↑Fri Nov 25, 2022 10:24 pm
attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Nov 25, 2022 10:03 pm

To a degree it must be so. We consciously make decisions (using our brain) which then controls aspects of the brain, for example standing up.

Since this all stems from my statement below, I thought I'd bring it back for discussion:
1. Conscious minds choose by careful consideration (analysis of qualia inputs, reflected upon ones previously acquired knowledge).

Let's say we are deciding to have a holiday. Our conscious mind carefuly considers (analyses) qualia inputs (eg reading a brochure) while reflecting (analysing) upon previously acquired knowledge (information retrieved from the brain).
Do you agree that "brain" could be used instead of "conscious mind" in the example you gave: Our brain carefuly considers (analyses) qualia inputs (eg reading a brochure) while reflecting (analysing) upon previously acquired knowledge (information retrieved from the brain). If that's the case, aren't you mixing up conscious mind with brain?
No, I think the distinction needs to be made between the material object of the brain, and part of its function which is clearly the conscious mind.

Ok. But then you think that a "conscious mind" that is not physical can change the way brain signals flow, like making some neurons fire or stopping them from firing, which would go against the laws of physics. Basically, you're saying that your brain can be controlled by your consciousness in some way that involves telekinesis, right? Or have I completely misunderstood you?

Posted: **Fri Nov 25, 2022 10:49 pm**

BigMike wrote: ↑Fri Nov 25, 2022 10:44 pm
attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Nov 25, 2022 10:34 pm
BigMike wrote: ↑Fri Nov 25, 2022 10:24 pm

Do you agree that "brain" could be used instead of "conscious mind" in the example you gave: Our brain carefuly considers (analyses) qualia inputs (eg reading a brochure) while reflecting (analysing) upon previously acquired knowledge (information retrieved from the brain). If that's the case, aren't you mixing up conscious mind with brain?
No, I think the distinction needs to be made between the material object of the brain, and part of its function which is clearly the conscious mind.
Ok. But then you think that a "conscious mind" that is not physical can change the way brain signals flow, like making some neurons fire or stopping them from firing, which would go against the laws of physics. Basically, you're saying that your brain can be controlled by your consciousness in some way that involves telekinesis, right? Or have I completely misunderstood you?

The conscious mind relies on the physical properties of the brain. As I said, the conscious mind is part of the brain's function.

btw. Do you consider an EM wave physical?

Posted: **Fri Nov 25, 2022 11:08 pm**

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Nov 25, 2022 10:49 pm
BigMike wrote: ↑Fri Nov 25, 2022 10:44 pm
attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Nov 25, 2022 10:34 pm

No, I think the distinction needs to be made between the material object of the brain, and part of its function which is clearly the conscious mind.
Ok. But then you think that a "conscious mind" that is not physical can change the way brain signals flow, like making some neurons fire or stopping them from firing, which would go against the laws of physics. Basically, you're saying that your brain can be controlled by your consciousness in some way that involves telekinesis, right? Or have I completely misunderstood you?
The conscious mind relies on the physical properties of the brain. As I said, the conscious mind is part of the brain's function.

Relies, in what way. Does it interact with the brain's physical properties, such as the masses of atoms, the electric charges of ions, the way neurotransmitters attach to receptors, etc.? If that's the case, then these interactions can only happen if both the brain and the conscious mind (the things that are interacting) are physical, through one of the four fundamental universal forces (gravity, electromagnetism, and the two nuclear forces).

btw. Do you consider an EM wave physical?

Absolutely.

Posted: **Fri Nov 25, 2022 11:56 pm**

BigMike wrote: ↑Fri Nov 25, 2022 11:08 pm
attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Nov 25, 2022 10:49 pm
BigMike wrote: ↑Fri Nov 25, 2022 10:44 pm

Ok. But then you think that a "conscious mind" that is not physical can change the way brain signals flow, like making some neurons fire or stopping them from firing, which would go against the laws of physics. Basically, you're saying that your brain can be controlled by your consciousness in some way that involves telekinesis, right? Or have I completely misunderstood you?
The conscious mind relies on the physical properties of the brain. As I said, the conscious mind is part of the brain's function.
Relies, in what way. Does it interact with the brain's physical properties, such as the masses of atoms, the electric charges of ions, the way neurotransmitters attach to receptors, etc.? If that's the case, then these interactions can only happen if both the brain and the conscious mind (the things that are interacting) are physical, through one of the four fundamental universal forces (gravity, electromagnetism, and the two nuclear forces).

Sure, so what is your point?

You'd rather talk "the brain does this" I'd rather talk "the conscious mind does this"..

Taking that further, by stating "the brain does this.." one is not breaking down to the particular function within the brain, and that is the conscious mind.

BigMike wrote:
atto wrote:btw. Do you consider an EM wave physical?
Absolutely.

Well, that's a relief.

Posted: **Sat Nov 26, 2022 1:06 am**

attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Nov 25, 2022 11:56 pm
BigMike wrote: ↑Fri Nov 25, 2022 11:08 pm
attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Nov 25, 2022 10:49 pm The conscious mind relies on the physical properties of the brain. As I said, the conscious mind is part of the brain's function.
Relies, in what way. Does it interact with the brain's physical properties, such as the masses of atoms, the electric charges of ions, the way neurotransmitters attach to receptors, etc.? If that's the case, then these interactions can only happen if both the brain and the conscious mind (the things that are interacting) are physical, through one of the four fundamental universal forces (gravity, electromagnetism, and the two nuclear forces).
Sure, so what is your point?

My point is that if the "conscious mind" interacts with the "brain," then the "conscious mind" is a physical thing that is subject to the same physical laws as everything else. That's why it's not free. So there is no free will, and compatibilism is a bunch of nonsense.

Posted: **Sat Nov 26, 2022 1:14 am**

BigMike wrote: ↑Sat Nov 26, 2022 1:06 am
attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Nov 25, 2022 11:56 pm
BigMike wrote: ↑Fri Nov 25, 2022 11:08 pm
Relies, in what way. Does it interact with the brain's physical properties, such as the masses of atoms, the electric charges of ions, the way neurotransmitters attach to receptors, etc.? If that's the case, then these interactions can only happen if both the brain and the conscious mind (the things that are interacting) are physical, through one of the four fundamental universal forces (gravity, electromagnetism, and the two nuclear forces).
Sure, so what is your point?
My point is that if the "conscious mind" interacts with the "brain," then the "conscious mind" is a physical thing that is subject to the same physical laws as everything else. That's why it's not free. So there is no free will, and compatibilism is a bunch of nonsense.

The conscious mind certainly interacts with the brain, and exists as part of it, however it does not then follow that there is no free will.

So you agree that the mind exists, to the extent of understanding that we have a 'minds eye'?

Posted: **Sat Nov 26, 2022 1:51 am**

BigMike wrote: ↑Sat Nov 26, 2022 1:06 am My point is that if the "conscious mind" interacts with the "brain," then the "conscious mind" is a physical thing that is subject to the same physical laws as everything else. That's why it's not free. So there is no free will, and compatibilism is a bunch of nonsense.

You slipped on the phrase "interacts with."

Nobody denies that the mind "interacts with" the brain, in the sense that the two work together in some way we don't quite grasp. What you need to be able to say is not that they are two things that "interact," but that the mind is nothing but the brain. That they are the same. There is no mind, in other words; just a brain.

But that's clearly wrong. Mind is not divisible, but brain is. Brain is a piece of meat, but mind is consciousness. Mind responds to reason, ideas, imaginings, beliefs, etc., and brain only to chemistry and electricity. We might say that the mind is "in" the brain and "interacts" with it, but a brain with no mind is inert and non-functional. Dead people have (at least initially) 100% of their brains, and no mind. And whether or not mind persists after the brain is a question for people who have passed over that line to answer...you cannot.

So it's not at all a slamdunk, and you suggest it is. The mind is not "subject to the same physical laws" (like divisibility, tangibility, and so on) as the brain.

And here you are again, arguing against free will. But if determinism were true, you could not. No argument would influence anything. Whatever anybody believed or did not believe would be merely a matter of chemistry, and impossible for you to change.

What you're trying to do is change a mind, not change a brain.

So you don't really believe your own argument. If you did, you would not argue.

Posted: **Sat Nov 26, 2022 3:49 am**

henry quirk wrote: ↑Tue Nov 01, 2022 5:20 pm
Is consciousness just a function of the brain(?)
Nope.

All the evidence points in this direction without exception.
Really?

https://mindmatters.ai/2022/08/a-neuros ... f-a-brain/

https://mindmatters.ai/2022/08/people-w ... ych-tests/

https://mindmatters.ai/2020/01/yes-spli ... you-think/

https://mindmatters.ai/2019/12/how-can- ... th-matter/

https://mindmatters.ai/2019/07/four-res ... he-mind/#1

Each piece linked to has links to other pieces and so on.

Let the dismissal (and insults) begin...

Posted: **Sat Nov 26, 2022 9:53 am**

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sat Nov 26, 2022 1:14 am
BigMike wrote: ↑Sat Nov 26, 2022 1:06 am
attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Nov 25, 2022 11:56 pm
Sure, so what is your point?
My point is that if the "conscious mind" interacts with the "brain," then the "conscious mind" is a physical thing that is subject to the same physical laws as everything else. That's why it's not free. So there is no free will, and compatibilism is a bunch of nonsense.
The conscious mind certainly interacts with the brain, and exists as part of it, however it does not then follow that there is no free will.

So you agree that the mind exists, to the extent of understanding that we have a 'minds eye'?

You have to read my response one more time. I said "My point is that if the "conscious mind" interacts with the "brain", then..." You're the one who says they interact, not me. I'm saying they can't interact.

Posted: **Sat Nov 26, 2022 10:10 am**

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Nov 26, 2022 1:51 am
BigMike wrote: ↑Sat Nov 26, 2022 1:06 am My point is that if the "conscious mind" interacts with the "brain," then the "conscious mind" is a physical thing that is subject to the same physical laws as everything else. That's why it's not free. So there is no free will, and compatibilism is a bunch of nonsense.
You slipped on the phrase "interacts with."

Nobody denies that the mind "interacts with" the brain, in the sense that the two work together in some way we don't quite grasp.

I do. I don't think the mind interacts with the brain. It's impossible. The mind, or consciousness, or whatever you want to call it, is only aware what the brain "did" after the fact, which has nothing to do with what the brain does or doesn't do.

Posted: **Sat Nov 26, 2022 11:50 am**

BigMike wrote: ↑Sat Nov 26, 2022 10:10 am
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Nov 26, 2022 1:51 am
BigMike wrote: ↑Sat Nov 26, 2022 1:06 am My point is that if the "conscious mind" interacts with the "brain," then the "conscious mind" is a physical thing that is subject to the same physical laws as everything else. That's why it's not free. So there is no free will, and compatibilism is a bunch of nonsense.
You slipped on the phrase "interacts with."

Nobody denies that the mind "interacts with" the brain, in the sense that the two work together in some way we don't quite grasp.
I do. I don't think the mind interacts with the brain. It's impossible. The mind, or consciousness, or whatever you want to call it, is only aware what the brain "did" after the fact, which has nothing to do with what the brain does or doesn't do.

Mind is a function of the brain, a product of, and the mind's sole idea is the body.

Posted: **Sat Nov 26, 2022 12:05 pm**

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Sat Nov 26, 2022 11:50 am
BigMike wrote: ↑Sat Nov 26, 2022 10:10 am
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Nov 26, 2022 1:51 am
You slipped on the phrase "interacts with."

Nobody denies that the mind "interacts with" the brain, in the sense that the two work together in some way we don't quite grasp.
I do. I don't think the mind interacts with the brain. It's impossible. The mind, or consciousness, or whatever you want to call it, is only aware what the brain "did" after the fact, which has nothing to do with what the brain does or doesn't do.
Mind is a function of the brain, a product of, and the mind's sole idea is the body.

The mind's sole idea is the body? Are you saying that the "mind," which comes from the brain, does its own "brainless" thinking on top of what the brain has already done?

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