Philosophy Now Forum

Harbal wrote: ↑Sun Jul 31, 2022 7:35 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Sun Jun 12, 2022 3:19 pm To show this I have to show three things: (1) The universe cannot be eternal, (2) the universe has a beginning, and (3) the act of creation is logically impossible.

Nobody has ever been able to conclusively show any of those things, bahman, what on earth has made you think you are going to be the first to do it.

bahman wrote: ↑Sun Jul 31, 2022 7:51 pm
Because I made a clear argument for each. Do you want to discuss them?

Right now I’m halfway through Jim Holt’s terrific book “Why Does the World Exist?,” which is entirely about the something-nothing question. It’s a wild ride, and romping great fun. You get the impression that Holt thought about this issue until his skull began to crack.

There is an element here of a travelogue, and even a dining guide – the people who wonder about existence tend to drink a lot – but most of all it’s a tireless rumination on a single, unanswerable (sorry) question. Holt describes how philosophers, theologians and cosmologists have tried to shinny up this greased pole for thousands of years.

bahman wrote: ↑Sun Jul 31, 2022 7:51 pm

Harbal wrote: ↑Sun Jul 31, 2022 7:35 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Sun Jun 12, 2022 3:19 pm To show this I have to show three things: (1) The universe cannot be eternal, (2) the universe has a beginning, and (3) the act of creation is logically impossible.

Nobody has ever been able to conclusively show any of those things, bahman, what on earth has made you think you are going to be the first to do it.

Because I made a clear argument for each. Do you want to discuss them?

iambiguous wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:26 pm Why there’s something rather than nothing
By Joel Achenbach at the Washington Post

Right now I’m halfway through Jim Holt’s terrific book “Why Does the World Exist?,” which is entirely about the something-nothing question. It’s a wild ride, and romping great fun. You get the impression that Holt thought about this issue until his skull began to crack.

Now this is a truly crucial observation. Aside from the objectivists among us who actually do believe that how they think about nothing, something and everything that there now is reflects the whole truth, the more sophisticated minds can't help but grasp just how mind-boggling existence qua existence itself is.

iambiguous wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:26 pm How do you wrap your head around it? In other words, if you don't just take the shortcut to God.

iambiguous wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:26 pm Everything that we note around us once did not exist.

iambiguous wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:26 pm Then it did.

iambiguous wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:26 pm Then over time it will not again. It might take billions of years before planet Earth is gone but it is predicted that the Sun on the way to its own demise will swallow the Earth whole. At best we can reduce everything down to atoms and to subatomic particulars that do their thing...forever?

But existence itself? In a No God universe? How can it either always have existed or come into existence out of nothing at all? Which rendition seems the most preposterous?

iambiguous wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:26 pm

There is an element here of a travelogue, and even a dining guide – the people who wonder about existence tend to drink a lot – but most of all it’s a tireless rumination on a single, unanswerable (sorry) question. Holt describes how philosophers, theologians and cosmologists have tried to shinny up this greased pole for thousands of years.

And we too are all along for the ride, aren't we? Is it an unanswerable question? Hell, we don't even know whether any answer we do come up with isn't the only answer we were ever able to come up with. Why? Because all the matter that encompasses "everything there is" [whether from nothing or always around] is inherently, necessarily subsumed in the immutable laws of matter itself.

Then back to those here who insist their pole is anything but greased. They've climbed all the way to the top. How? By constructing a "world of words" "in their head" allowing them to "think up" the solution.

Then when you ask them to demonstrate it, all they have available for you are yet more "arguments".

Age wrote: ↑Sat Aug 06, 2022 12:36 am

iambiguous wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:26 pm Why there’s something rather than nothing
By Joel Achenbach at the Washington Post

Right now I’m halfway through Jim Holt’s terrific book “Why Does the World Exist?,” which is entirely about the something-nothing question. It’s a wild ride, and romping great fun. You get the impression that Holt thought about this issue until his skull began to crack.

Now this is a truly crucial observation. Aside from the objectivists among us who actually do believe that how they think about nothing, something and everything that there now is reflects the whole truth, the more sophisticated minds can't help but grasp just how mind-boggling existence qua existence itself is.

What is 'it', which you are boggled about here, exactly?

And, the oxymoron and self-contradictory claim that, 'the more sophisticated minds are the boggled ones', speaks for itself.

1. How the whole Truth is obtained is, essentially, very simple and very easy.

2. In relation to why there is something rather than nothing, it is extremely simple and easy to KNOW and to UNDERSTAND.

3. Because of what the Universe is fundamentally made up of, and because of how the Universe actually works, there can only be 'something'.

4. Existence exists, or there is Existence, because it could not be any other way.

iambiguous wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:26 pm How do you wrap your head around it? In other words, if you don't just take the shortcut to God.

Very easily and very simply.

1. If you were more specific than just saying 'it', then I could better explain to you how you exactly do so-call ' wrap your head around 'it' '.

2. God is just a word that refers to some 'thing'.

iambiguous wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:26 pm Everything that we note around us once did not exist.

This is not true, but while you actually do believe that how you think about nothing, something and everything here now reflects the whole truth, then you are not open to seeing and learning more, nor anew.

iambiguous wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:26 pm Then it did.

Just about all things evolve into existence, exist, and then exit.

But do not forget that appearances are not always as they appear as well.

iambiguous wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:26 pm Then over time it will not again. It might take billions of years before planet Earth is gone but it is predicted that the Sun on the way to its own demise will swallow the Earth whole. At best we can reduce everything down to atoms and to subatomic particulars that do their thing...forever?

But existence itself? In a No God universe? How can it either always have existed or come into existence out of nothing at all? Which rendition seems the most preposterous?

In a God or NO God Universe the Universe, Itself, is always existing, (just in a continual different shape or form).

The Universe coming from nothing is logically and physically IMPOSSIBLE.

The Universe always existing is not just logically and physically POSSIBLE, the Universe existing always is just what is actually irrefutably True, or otherwise known as the whole Truth.

The Universe always being in Existence is not just a possibility but what is actuality.

iambiguous wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:26 pm

There is an element here of a travelogue, and even a dining guide – the people who wonder about existence tend to drink a lot – but most of all it’s a tireless rumination on a single, unanswerable (sorry) question. Holt describes how philosophers, theologians and cosmologists have tried to shinny up this greased pole for thousands of years.

And we too are all along for the ride, aren't we? Is it an unanswerable question? Hell, we don't even know whether any answer we do come up with isn't the only answer we were ever able to come up with. Why? Because all the matter that encompasses "everything there is" [whether from nothing or always around] is inherently, necessarily subsumed in the immutable laws of matter itself.

Then back to those here who insist their pole is anything but greased. They've climbed all the way to the top. How? By constructing a "world of words" "in their head" allowing them to "think up" the solution.

Then when you ask them to demonstrate it, all they have available for you are yet more "arguments".

What else do you want besides an 'argument' or 'arguments'?

Also, are you aware that a 'sound and valid argument' is irrefutable, and therefore a Fact that cannot be disproved?

So, once a 'sound and valid argument' is provided, then what else would you want, or need?

iambiguous wrote: ↑Sat Aug 06, 2022 2:01 am

Age wrote: ↑Sat Aug 06, 2022 12:36 am

iambiguous wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:26 pm Why there’s something rather than nothing
By Joel Achenbach at the Washington Post



Now this is a truly crucial observation. Aside from the objectivists among us who actually do believe that how they think about nothing, something and everything that there now is reflects the whole truth, the more sophisticated minds can't help but grasp just how mind-boggling existence qua existence itself is.

What is 'it', which you are boggled about here, exactly?

And, the oxymoron and self-contradictory claim that, 'the more sophisticated minds are the boggled ones', speaks for itself.

1. How the whole Truth is obtained is, essentially, very simple and very easy.

2. In relation to why there is something rather than nothing, it is extremely simple and easy to KNOW and to UNDERSTAND.

3. Because of what the Universe is fundamentally made up of, and because of how the Universe actually works, there can only be 'something'.

4. Existence exists, or there is Existence, because it could not be any other way.

iambiguous wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:26 pm How do you wrap your head around it? In other words, if you don't just take the shortcut to God.

Very easily and very simply.

1. If you were more specific than just saying 'it', then I could better explain to you how you exactly do so-call ' wrap your head around 'it' '.

2. God is just a word that refers to some 'thing'.

iambiguous wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:26 pm Everything that we note around us once did not exist.

This is not true, but while you actually do believe that how you think about nothing, something and everything here now reflects the whole truth, then you are not open to seeing and learning more, nor anew.

iambiguous wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:26 pm Then it did.

Just about all things evolve into existence, exist, and then exit.

But do not forget that appearances are not always as they appear as well.

iambiguous wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:26 pm Then over time it will not again. It might take billions of years before planet Earth is gone but it is predicted that the Sun on the way to its own demise will swallow the Earth whole. At best we can reduce everything down to atoms and to subatomic particulars that do their thing...forever?

But existence itself? In a No God universe? How can it either always have existed or come into existence out of nothing at all? Which rendition seems the most preposterous?

In a God or NO God Universe the Universe, Itself, is always existing, (just in a continual different shape or form).

The Universe coming from nothing is logically and physically IMPOSSIBLE.

The Universe always existing is not just logically and physically POSSIBLE, the Universe existing always is just what is actually irrefutably True, or otherwise known as the whole Truth.

The Universe always being in Existence is not just a possibility but what is actuality.

iambiguous wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:26 pm

And we too are all along for the ride, aren't we? Is it an unanswerable question? Hell, we don't even know whether any answer we do come up with isn't the only answer we were ever able to come up with. Why? Because all the matter that encompasses "everything there is" [whether from nothing or always around] is inherently, necessarily subsumed in the immutable laws of matter itself.

Then back to those here who insist their pole is anything but greased. They've climbed all the way to the top. How? By constructing a "world of words" "in their head" allowing them to "think up" the solution.

Then when you ask them to demonstrate it, all they have available for you are yet more "arguments".

What else do you want besides an 'argument' or 'arguments'?

Also, are you aware that a 'sound and valid argument' is irrefutable, and therefore a Fact that cannot be disproved?

So, once a 'sound and valid argument' is provided, then what else would you want, or need?

Anyone else?

Advocate wrote: ↑Sat Aug 06, 2022 2:16 am Nothing isn't possible so nothing to something also isn't possible.

Age wrote: ↑Sat Aug 06, 2022 2:26 am

iambiguous wrote: ↑Sat Aug 06, 2022 2:01 am

Age wrote: ↑Sat Aug 06, 2022 12:36 am

What is 'it', which you are boggled about here, exactly?

And, the oxymoron and self-contradictory claim that, 'the more sophisticated minds are the boggled ones', speaks for itself.

1. How the whole Truth is obtained is, essentially, very simple and very easy.

2. In relation to why there is something rather than nothing, it is extremely simple and easy to KNOW and to UNDERSTAND.

3. Because of what the Universe is fundamentally made up of, and because of how the Universe actually works, there can only be 'something'.

4. Existence exists, or there is Existence, because it could not be any other way.


Very easily and very simply.

1. If you were more specific than just saying 'it', then I could better explain to you how you exactly do so-call ' wrap your head around 'it' '.

2. God is just a word that refers to some 'thing'.


This is not true, but while you actually do believe that how you think about nothing, something and everything here now reflects the whole truth, then you are not open to seeing and learning more, nor anew.



Just about all things evolve into existence, exist, and then exit.

But do not forget that appearances are not always as they appear as well.



In a God or NO God Universe the Universe, Itself, is always existing, (just in a continual different shape or form).

The Universe coming from nothing is logically and physically IMPOSSIBLE.

The Universe always existing is not just logically and physically POSSIBLE, the Universe existing always is just what is actually irrefutably True, or otherwise known as the whole Truth.

The Universe always being in Existence is not just a possibility but what is actuality.


What else do you want besides an 'argument' or 'arguments'?

Also, are you aware that a 'sound and valid argument' is irrefutable, and therefore a Fact that cannot be disproved?

So, once a 'sound and valid argument' is provided, then what else would you want, or need?

Anyone else?

The reason there is nothing in what I said here that you could refute nor counter is because it is all irrefutable.

The Universe is therefore eternal, and infinite. As already proved True.

Your BELIEF of otherwise is WHY you cannot yet see this Fact.

iambiguous wrote: ↑Sat Aug 06, 2022 5:05 am

Age wrote: ↑Sat Aug 06, 2022 2:26 am

iambiguous wrote: ↑Sat Aug 06, 2022 2:01 am

Anyone else?

The reason there is nothing in what I said here that you could refute nor counter is because it is all irrefutable.

The Universe is therefore eternal, and infinite. As already proved True.

Your BELIEF of otherwise is WHY you cannot yet see this Fact.

No, seriously.

Any attempt to answer the question has to be clear about the definition of “nothing.”

It is not enough to describe a mechanism in which a baby universe might spark into being through a quantum fluctuation and then undergo expansion and inflation and increasing complexity until finally we wind up with galaxies and planets and dolphins shooting up out of a pool to grab a fish from the trainer. To my mind, that just takes the question back to an early condition that yet requires an explanation.

In that scenario your “nothing” still has qualities that give rise to something. It’s not a true nothing. My version of zero has no superscripts. And if you can tell me there’s a Multiverse from which our universe bubbled forth, you’ve merely moved the fundamental problem of existence back onto a broader platform.

This also covers the God explanation. If God is the ultimate cause of the universe, I’ll want to know why God exists. The obvious answer is: He just does. He is. He’s what Holt calls the Supreme Brute Fact. He explains himself. And so on.

A secular version of [the God explanation], one that doesn’t require a supreme Creator, is how I approach the something-nothing question. Seems to me that “nothing,” for all its simplicity and symmetry and lack of arbitrariness, is nonetheless an entirely imaginary state, or condition, and we can say with confidence that it has never existed.

“Nothing” is dreamed up in the world of something, in the brains of philosophers etc. on a little blue planet orbiting an ordinary yellow star in a certain spiral galaxy. I wouldn’t go so far as to say that nothing could not in theory “exist,” but seems to me that it hasn’t. We’ve never been that dialed down, folks. Just didn’t happen. We live in the something universe, either in our tidy little Big Bang universe or in a Big Bang bubble within the Multiverse, and no amount of deletion of the elements and forces of this universe would ever get us to a condition of absolutely nothing.

Light travels at approximately 186,000 miles a second. That is about 6,000,000,000,000 miles a year.

The closest star to us is Alpha Centauri. It is 4.75 light-years away. 28,500,000,000,000 miles.

So, traveling at 186,000 miles a second, it would take us 4.75 years to reach it. The voyager spacecraft [just now exiting our solar system] will take 70,000 years to reach it.

To reach the center of the Milky Way galaxy it would take 100,000 light-years.

Or consider this:

"To get to the closest galaxy to ours, the Canis Major Dwarf, at Voyager's speed, it would take approximately 749,000,000 years to travel the distance of 25,000 light years! If we could travel at the speed of light, it would still take 25,000 years!"

The Andromeda galaxy is 2.537 million light years away.

For all practical purposes, it is beyond the imagination of mere mortals here on planet Earth to grasp just how staggeringly immense the universe is.

As for situating "I" in all of this...?

It turns out that roughly 68% of the universe is dark energy. Dark matter makes up about 27%. The rest - everything on Earth, everything ever observed with all of our instruments, all normal matter - adds up to less than 5% of the universe.

So, then, why is there something rather than nothing? There just is. The is-ness of the universe is one of its interesting features. Sorry if that isn’t satisfactory. It is because it is. Let’s move on.

Obviously there remain huge cosmological questions, like the fate of the universe. And we’d all like to know what happened before the Big Bang, but I’m fairly persuaded by the Hawking notion that time itself begins at the Big Bang and there’s no “before.” There’s no boundary. The universe is finite but unbounded, like the 2-D surface of a sphere.