Philosophy Now Forum

Jesus wrote:

Sorry for the delay, Gary...I didn't see this until now

It’s ok mannie….we know it sometimes takes you a little while to slip into all your Jesus attire before mounting you’re pedestal

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri May 13, 2022 8:14 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Fri May 13, 2022 8:00 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri May 13, 2022 7:31 pm
If they think so, it's only because they don't really know what Hell is.

You have never experienced cancer, etc.

Well, I could point out that you don't know what I've experienced. People go through all kinds of things. But I won't speak of myself here.

But as bad as things can be here, Hell's worse.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri May 13, 2022 7:31 pm
It depends what you mean by "complete."

By complete I mean it answers all necessary question,

It does that.

like we are suffering.

What I'm suggesting is it's possible we couldn't understand the answer to that if it were given.

But if you mean, "Why didn't He provide some explanation for the phenomenon of human suffering generally," then the answer is much easier: He did.

What is that?

You mean, what is the reason for suffering in general, not in specific?

I've been giving you some of those.

In the large scheme of things, suffering is a product of being out of connection to the Source of life, health and well-being Himself, God. But in addition, some suffering is a judgment against sin. Some is a product of other people's sins, as when somebody victimizes somebody else. Some of it is the cost of freedom. Some is for our maturation and training. Some, to arrest us from some folly we've undertaken...

There are many reasons for suffering. But most people don't find a general knowledge of them helps with the question, "Why am I suffering?" Because it could be any or none of those. And the ultimate answer to that is known only to God.

However, it is not necessary for us to know why suffering happens, is it? I mean, what does such knowledge change for us?

So Bible does not answer an ultimate answer to this question? How Bible could be complete if it does not answer this?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri May 13, 2022 7:31 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri May 13, 2022 1:42 am
God doesn't. Man often does.

But again, you have to be careful with that word, "innocents," too. It's not so easy for we humans to say who is truly "innocent."

A newborn baby who has cancer.

Did the mother smoke? Did some maker of plastic products put toxins in her food? Did she have a congenital condition that led to it?

It's a hypothetical case: and hypothetical cases of this kind are impossible to answer. The answer always depends on details we don't have.

So, your answer is that the baby gets cancer as the result of someone else fault?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri May 13, 2022 1:42 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri May 13, 2022 1:42 am
Well, that would be tragic for you and me, then, wouldn't it? And there'd be nothing at all we could do about it. So it wouldn't even be worth regretting...we couldn't get it if we tried.

But do you think that's how it is?

I think so.

Well, I suppose you'll give up the expectation that there should be any meaning, then.

But somehow, I don't think you will.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri May 13, 2022 1:42 am
Bored of what?

Bored of doing a thing repeatedly

Sure.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri May 13, 2022 1:42 am
The answer's simple again: He did.

How does God define evil and what is the reason for evil to be prohibited?

"Evil" is anything not consonant with the character and intentions of God. And it's prohibited not merely because it's against the Lord of the Universe, but also because it's toxic to us. It leads to death.

And what is God intention and what is the reason that it is good?

bahman wrote: ↑Fri May 13, 2022 8:43 pm So Bible does not answer an ultimate answer to this question? How Bible could be complete if it does not answer this?

"Complete" was your word, not mine. I just pointed out that it was ambiguous, so it needed defining.

The Word of God tells us everything we need for life and godliness. That does not mean it purports to tell us everything.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri May 13, 2022 7:31 pm

A newborn baby who has cancer.

Did the mother smoke? Did some maker of plastic products put toxins in her food? Did she have a congenital condition that led to it?

It's a hypothetical case: and hypothetical cases of this kind are impossible to answer. The answer always depends on details we don't have.

So, your answer is that the baby gets cancer as the result of someone else fault?

It can be. I'm not saying that it is, in this case.

Since your case is only hypothetical, who can say?

And what is God intention and what is the reason that it is good?

The opposite.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri May 13, 2022 8:49 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Fri May 13, 2022 8:43 pm So Bible does not answer an ultimate answer to this question? How Bible could be complete if it does not answer this?

"Complete" was your word, not mine. I just pointed out that it was ambiguous, so it needed defining.

The Word of God tells us everything we need for life and godliness. That does not mean it purports to tell us everything.

The purpose of suffering. That is what I am looking for.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri May 13, 2022 7:31 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri May 13, 2022 7:31 pm
Did the mother smoke? Did some maker of plastic products put toxins in her food? Did she have a congenital condition that led to it?

It's a hypothetical case: and hypothetical cases of this kind are impossible to answer. The answer always depends on details we don't have.

So, your answer is that the baby gets cancer as the result of someone else fault?

It can be. I'm not saying that it is, in this case.

Since your case is only hypothetical, who can say?

And what is God intention and what is the reason that it is good?

The opposite.

That does not help.

So, your answer is that the baby gets cancer as the result of someone else fault?

God already knows you before you are born, he knows if you will get cancer and still goes ahead with your creation.


That’s how smart of a creator he is.

bahman wrote: ↑Fri May 13, 2022 8:53 pm The purpose of suffering. That is what I am looking for.

I think I've answered that, haven't I? You couldn't possibly understand the complexity of an answer. But if you mean only "suffeirng generally," then I've given explanations for its existence already.

So what's left to ask?

And what is God intention and what is the reason that it is good?

The opposite.

That does not help.

Take my answer about evil, and consider the opposite of both statements. That should help.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri May 13, 2022 9:48 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Fri May 13, 2022 8:53 pm The purpose of suffering. That is what I am looking for.

I think I've answered that, haven't I? You couldn't possibly understand the complexity of an answer. But if you mean only "suffeirng generally," then I've given explanations for its existence already.

So what's left to ask?

All you have offered is that there is a greater picture that we cannot see. On top of that, you mentioned that suffering is due to sin, either yourself or others.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri May 13, 2022 9:48 pm

The opposite.

That does not help.

Take my answer about evil, and consider the opposite of both statements. That should help.

I am afraid that I didn't understand the definition of evil.

bahman wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 2:18 pm All you have offered is that there is a greater picture that we cannot see.

Hmmm...that's certainly not "all." But okay.

On top of that, you mentioned that suffering is due to sin, either yourself or others.

So far, so good. Even somebody who has no theological beliefs at all is going to know that some suffering is occasioned by others. That's empirically obvious.

I am afraid that I didn't understand the definition of evil.

Well, what's yours? What, in your view, makes something "evil"?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 6:50 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 2:18 pm All you have offered is that there is a greater picture that we cannot see.

Hmmm...that's certainly not "all." But okay.

Sorry that was one of your main comments.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 6:50 pm

On top of that, you mentioned that suffering is due to sin, either yourself or others.

So far, so good. Even somebody who has no theological beliefs at all is going to know that some suffering is occasioned by others. That's empirically obvious.

Could you answer why I should be here? In this sinful world. I really didn't want to if I had a choice.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 6:50 pm

I am afraid that I didn't understand the definition of evil.

Well, what's yours? What, in your view, makes something "evil"?

Good is the state of pleasure and clarity whereas Evil is the state of suffering and confusion.

bahman wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 8:48 pm Could you answer why I should be here? In this sinful world.

Because God wanted there to be a you, and you were to have free choice about your relationship with Him...or not to have one, as you prefer. But in His view, He would prefer that you did...because the fact that He made you shows that He wanted you. If He didn't, He wouldn't have made you at all.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 6:50 pm

I am afraid that I didn't understand the definition of evil.

Well, what's yours? What, in your view, makes something "evil"?

Good is the state of pleasure and clarity whereas Evil is the state of suffering and confusion.

Do you mean that adjectivally, as in "Suffering and confusion seem to me to be evil," or do you mean that literally, so that suffering and confusion are exactly what the word "evil" means?

I want to be sure I understand your answer, so I have to ask.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 8:55 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 8:48 pm Could you answer why I should be here? In this sinful world.

Because God wanted there to be a you, and you were to have free choice about your relationship with Him...or not to have one, as you prefer. But in His view, He would prefer that you did...because the fact that He made you shows that He wanted you. If He didn't, He wouldn't have made you at all.

Did God create me because of Himself or did He create me because of myself? He didn't create me because of myself since He expects me to worship Him. Why should we love God or get punishment, Hell? Don't think that this is selfish?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 8:55 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 6:50 pm
Well, what's yours? What, in your view, makes something "evil"?

Good is the state of pleasure and clarity whereas Evil is the state of suffering and confusion.

Do you mean that adjectivally, as in "Suffering and confusion seem to me to be evil," or do you mean that literally, so that suffering and confusion are exactly what the word "evil" means?

I want to be sure I understand your answer, so I have to ask.

Good and Evil describe two different sorts of mental states. When you are in a mental state of pleasure and clarity then you are in a good mental state and the opposite for evil.

bahman wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 9:18 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 8:55 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 8:48 pm Could you answer why I should be here? In this sinful world.

Because God wanted there to be a you, and you were to have free choice about your relationship with Him...or not to have one, as you prefer. But in His view, He would prefer that you did...because the fact that He made you shows that He wanted you. If He didn't, He wouldn't have made you at all.

Did God create me because of Himself or did He create me because of myself? He didn't create me because of myself...

A thing that does not yet exist can't be the cause for its own existence. That's obvious, isn't it?

Why should we love God or get punishment...?

Think of it this way: if God is the source of everything good -- health, happiness, light, joy, peace, relationship, triumph, hope, forgiveness, healing, grace, mercy etc., then what would it be like if you rejected completely the only actual Source of all these things? What would the kind of place where you could have what you want, if you rejected relationship with such an Entity, look like?

What could it have in it but the opposites of all these things? Having none of God in it, (as you essentially decided you wanted it to be without the presence of God) what could it have left? Nothing but the qualities normally ascribed to "Hell," to use your word.

So is that "punishment," or is that just getting exactly what a person who rejects God is really asking for?

You didn't think it was possible to keep the Giver's gifts without the Giver, did you?

Good and Evil describe two different sorts of mental states.

I think maybe you want to rethink that.

The reason I say that is that if good and evil were just "mental states," then the solution to your situation would be terribly obvious: it would be, "Just change your mental state."

But I would find that answer unsatisfactory. And I'm thinking you would, too.

So do you want to change that answer?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 9:37 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 9:18 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 8:55 pm
Because God wanted there to be a you, and you were to have free choice about your relationship with Him...or not to have one, as you prefer. But in His view, He would prefer that you did...because the fact that He made you shows that He wanted you. If He didn't, He wouldn't have made you at all.

Did God create me because of Himself or did He create me because of myself? He didn't create me because of myself...

A thing that does not yet exist can't be the cause for its own existence. That's obvious, isn't it?

What does this have to do with worshiping God?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 9:37 pm

Why should we love God or get punishment...?

Think of it this way: if God is the source of everything good -- health, happiness, light, joy, peace, relationship, triumph, hope, forgiveness, healing, grace, mercy etc., then what would it be like if you rejected completely the only actual Source of all these things? What would the kind of place where you could have what you want, if you rejected relationship with such an Entity, look like?

What could it have in it but the opposites of all these things? Having none of God in it, (as you essentially decided you wanted it to be without the presence of God) what could it have left? Nothing but the qualities normally ascribed to "Hell," to use your word.

So is that "punishment," or is that just getting exactly what a person who rejects God is really asking for?

You didn't think it was possible to keep the Giver's gifts without the Giver, did you?

I don't want to worship anyone. I don't want to love someone who expects me to worship Him. So the third option would be nice, neither Heaven nor Hell, a place where I can live in peace.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 9:37 pm

Good and Evil describe two different sorts of mental states.

I think maybe you want to rethink that.

The reason I say that is that if good and evil were just "mental states," then the solution to your situation would be terribly obvious: it would be, "Just change your mental state."

You just cannot change a mental state.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 9:37 pm But I would find that answer unsatisfactory. And I'm thinking you would, too.

So do you want to change that answer?

I am happy with that definition.

bahman wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 9:56 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 9:37 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 9:18 pm
Did God create me because of Himself or did He create me because of myself? He didn't create me because of myself...

A thing that does not yet exist can't be the cause for its own existence. That's obvious, isn't it?

What does this have to do with worshiping God?

Well, what do you understand when you see the word "worshipping"? What do you suppose it means?

I don't want to worship anyone.

Again, let's figure out what you're concerned about. What does "worshipping" entail, in your view?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 9:37 pm

Good and Evil describe two different sorts of mental states.

I think maybe you want to rethink that.

The reason I say that is that if good and evil were just "mental states," then the solution to your situation would be terribly obvious: it would be, "Just change your mental state."

You just cannot change a mental state.

Yes, some, you can.

For example, you can choose to be an optimist or a pessimist. You can choose how you decide to feel about particular things. And so on.

But even if, for some reason, you can't change your own, what if you have something, like a drug or a hallucination or a reprogramming, do it for you? Would you then be happy that the problem had gone away?

I don't think so. I think you'd realize that it takes more than just changing the emotion to fix a situation.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 10:09 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 9:56 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 9:37 pm
A thing that does not yet exist can't be the cause for its own existence. That's obvious, isn't it?

What does this have to do with worshiping God?

Well, what do you understand when you see the word "worshipping"? What do you suppose it means?

I don't want to worship anyone.

Again, let's figure out what you're concerned about. What does "worshipping" entail, in your view?

Worship: The feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 10:09 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 9:37 pm
I think maybe you want to rethink that.

The reason I say that is that if good and evil were just "mental states," then the solution to your situation would be terribly obvious: it would be, "Just change your mental state."

You just cannot change a mental state.

Yes, some, you can.

For example, you can choose to be an optimist or a pessimist. You can choose how you decide to feel about particular things. And so on.

But even if, for some reason, you can't change your own, what if you have something, like a drug or a hallucination or a reprogramming, do it for you? Would you then be happy that the problem had gone away?

I don't think so. I think you'd realize that it takes more than just changing the emotion to fix a situation.

I had a very high level of depression with the tendency to kill or rape people. My depression is gone but my tendencies are not. I am in a constant fight to don't do something wrong.