Philosophy Now Forum

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 8:48 am But then one day, I just decided to drop the God word all together and drop back into original truth. Which is Nonduality.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:42 pmInteresting. You say both that "there is no truth" and "no one knows the truth," and yet you say "Nonduality IS the truth." Put those three claims together, and all they really seems to say is that Nonduality is undistinguished...that it is, at best, something you personally happen to wish to believe, but that has no special truth value. Is that the sum of your intention?

That's right, I'll repeat to you again. All truth claims are false. There is just the apparent belief there is a truth to be found. In reality, there is no truth to find or know, the concept ''truth'' is just a meaningless empty concept known by not-a-thing. . There is no truth except imagined subjective apparent truths - this is the basic premise of what Nonduality points to. It's not a person pointing to it...it's not-a-thing appearing to be a person pointing. In reality, there is no such thing as Nonduality because it's not-a-thing.
There is only not-a-thing apearing as every thing.

The God story does not make any rational sense whatsoever to me anyway.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:42 pmBut you also say you don't believe rationality is necessary.

In the dream there is an apparent need for rationality or no need for rationality. I've explained what the 'conceptual dream' is all about to you many times. But it's not a person doing this, it's simply nothing, not-a-thing apparently appearing as a someone explaining.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:42 pm You believe in Nonduality, so there is no truth-falsehood dichotomy. So even were it so, it would not be any kind of stroke against "the God story," as you call it.

All truth claims are stories within the dream, including the story that reality is nondual or that reality is God..it's all just a dream story within not-a-thing appearing as things.

I knew deep down that I was deluding myself, so I finally stopped deluding myself.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:42 pmWell, one shouldn't do that...at least, I think they shouldn't. But why you would say that, I don't know. After all, Nonduality is just subjective "truth," which means that a delusion is the same thing as it: just something one person believes, but nobody else should.

I don't know, DAM...it all makes little sense to me.

But there is no one doing anything, there is no one in control, by no-one, that is meant as a person, or an agency.

All there is is nothing happening, no one is doing anything, there's just not-a-thing appearing to be happening. What's just happening doesn't demand to know itself, nor does it demand to make sense of anything happening, because it doesn't need to, it's totally complete in every moment.

Wanting to know is an apparent appearance of not-a-thing appearing to itself as a dream, that appears as ''a wanting to know the truth of itself'' and /or '' a wanting the truth of what it apparently believes to make sense '' .... this is all just normal brain functioning. No thing is happening, it's only appearing to happen.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:44 pm

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 9:20 am IC... there is nothing higher than human sentient awareness...this is a FACT

Heh. When somebody writes, "this is a FACT," at the end of their claim, you know darn well they suspect it isn't. They just don't want their questionable claim questioned anymore, and they hope to evince sufficient bravado to make you ashamed to question.

No such luck, I'm afraid.

Within the dream of knowledge. There is the belief in an apparent ''someone'' who knows the difference between fact and fiction. In reality both words are empty and meaningless, and there is not-a-thing that knows them, there is only the pretense that they are known.

Within the dream, there is an apparent belief that the words are real and meaningful, albeit an illusory belief.

In the dream, it is a fact that there is no knowledge of anything higher than what is apparently known as human sentient awareness.

Now, if you do not believe that statement as being a fact...then show evidence of a higher awareness other than that of human sentient awareness. You will find when you put it to the test that you cannot know of any other awareness existing outside of your own awareness, the one you believe to have. In reality, there is no person who has an awareness, except in the dream, as the artificial belief created by the brain.

I know you are desperate to cling onto your beloved belief that you exist as a 'someone', but that's just a belief that not-a-thing is believing.

And that is why I will continue to deconstruct this artificially created separate being known as a 'someone' that you seem to believe is real. No such luck, I'm afraid.

I understand you are having a hard time hearing this message, it's normal. Because, for the artificial sense of self it feels like a death, and it doesn't like that..it doesn't like the fact that there is no purpose or meaning in reality, everything is what it is, no intention or purpose to be, it's all just completely whole in every moment totally unknowable.

The only God there is - is the one that your brain has created artificially.

In the dream everything appears as if it's all real, but it's neither real nor unreal, it's an illusion appearing real. It's all not-a-thing appearing as some thing, every thing.

It's irrefutable, and can be tested out from the first person singular pronoun self, the one that artificially constructs the reality it believes it knows in the first PLACE



.

Belinda wrote: ↑Sat Jan 16, 2021 12:50 pm

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sat Jan 16, 2021 10:48 am

Dontaskme wrote: But why would any sane rational intelligent person choose to want that imposed upon the self?

Immanuel Can Wrote: Nobody would choose it for himself.

"For one will hardly die for a righteous person; though perhaps for the good person someone would even dare to die. But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." (Romans 5:7-8)

Nobody would choose it for themself, implies nobody would harm themself - including killing themself .... ?

We can see the freedom to choose violence to the self whether it be to themself or another is obviously available, but now you are saying nobody would choose it for themself, when they simply do.

My point is Immanuel, if we already know what the effects of pain and suffering is on ourself or another, then why would anybody choose to reincarnate into a reality where there is the freedom to choose to inflict pain and suffering either upon ourself or another ? why would they want to experience a reality like that?

Why would anyone want to reincarnate into a life of sin?

This is what I am trying to understand.

Even I understand it is because God so loved the world that He incarnated into it in order to rescue us.

What are being rescued and from what are they being rescued from?

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 3:37 pm

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 8:48 am But then one day, I just decided to drop the God word all together and drop back into original truth. Which is Nonduality.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:42 pmInteresting. You say both that "there is no truth" and "no one knows the truth," and yet you say "Nonduality IS the truth." Put those three claims together, and all they really seems to say is that Nonduality is undistinguished...that it is, at best, something you personally happen to wish to believe, but that has no special truth value. Is that the sum of your intention?

That's right, I'll repeat to you again.

You don't have to. If what you say is true, then I've got everything anybody needs to know about it, right there.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 4:02 pm I know you are desperate to cling onto your beloved belief that you exist as a 'someone', but that's just a belief that not-a-thing is believing.

Heh. More misguided "shame tactics." I'm not buying in.

Of course I'm not "desperate" or "clinging" to anything here; as a matter of fact, I'm not even feeling vaguely at risk or threat from "Nonduality", let alone "desperate." I find it totally implausible and totally incoherent.

But I will point out that if you and I are not real, we're not even having this conversation. And there's no truth in Nonduality, as you have said. But I'm not surprised: it's an utterly incoherent and unrealistic religiosity, I can see. That's even if I accept your testimony about it.

That might not make you happy to realize; but in this, it's not me who is your adversary: it's basic logic that has you pinned, really. Will that make you "desperate" or "clingy"? I don't think so...but one can fail to be desperate through being rational and secure in one's position, or merely by being oblivious to the problem. Which is it? So far, the latter, I have to think.

If there is NO truth, then Nonduality ISN'T true.

If there IS a truth, and Nonduality says there's NOT, then Nonduality also isn't true.

You're caught either way; it's that simple.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 4:02 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:44 pm

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 9:20 am IC... there is nothing higher than human sentient awareness...this is a FACT

Heh. When somebody writes, "this is a FACT," at the end of their claim, you know darn well they suspect it isn't. They just don't want their questionable claim questioned anymore, and they hope to evince sufficient bravado to make you ashamed to question.

No such luck, I'm afraid.

Within the dream of knowledge. There is the belief in an apparent ''someone'' who knows the difference between fact and fiction. In reality both words are empty and meaningless, and there is not-a-thing that knows them, there is only the pretense that they are known.

Within the dream, there is an apparent belief that the words are real and meaningful, albeit an illusory belief.

In the dream, it is a fact that there is no knowledge of anything higher than what is apparently known as human sentient awareness.

Now, if you do not believe that statement as being a fact...then show evidence of a higher awareness other than that of human sentient awareness. You will find when you put it to the test that you cannot know of any other awareness existing outside of your own awareness, the one you believe to have. In reality, there is no person who has an awareness, except in the dream, as the artificial belief created by the brain.

I know you are desperate to cling onto your beloved belief that you exist as a 'someone', but that's just a belief that not-a-thing is believing.

And that is why I will continue to deconstruct this artificially created separate being known as a 'someone' that you seem to believe is real. No such luck, I'm afraid.

I understand you are having a hard time hearing this message, it's normal. Because, for the artificial sense of self it feels like a death, and it doesn't like that..it doesn't like the fact that there is no purpose or meaning in reality, everything is what it is, no intention or purpose to be, it's all just completely whole in every moment totally unknowable.

The only God there is - is the one that your brain has created artificially.

In the dream everything appears as if it's all real, but it's neither real nor unreal, it's an illusion appearing real. It's all not-a-thing appearing as some thing, every thing.

It's irrefutable, and can be tested out from the first person singular pronoun self, the one that artificially constructs the reality it believes it knows in the first PLACE

Would it be accurate to say that the idea of a monism is the same idea as non-dualism?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 6:08 pm
Heh. More misguided "shame tactics." I'm not buying in.

Of course I'm not "desperate" or "clinging" to anything here; as a matter of fact, I'm not even feeling vaguely at risk or threat from "Nonduality", let alone "desperate." I find it totally implausible and totally incoherent.

And that would be nothing, Not-A Thing saying that - within the energy that is appearing as the 'dream character' whom believes there is a 'someone' saying it, albeit illusory.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 6:08 pmBut I will point out that if you and I are not real, we're not even having this conversation.

There is no one having this conversation, it's just what's happening. It's not-a-thing appearing as a conversation happening between two people.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 6:08 pm And there's no truth in Nonduality, as you have said. But I'm not surprised: it's an utterly incoherent and unrealistic religiosity, I can see. That's even if I accept your testimony about it.

Just more empty concepts arising from not-a-thing appearing to be known within the illusory dream appearing real.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 6:08 pmThat might not make you happy to realize; but in this, it's not me who is your adversary: it's basic logic that has you pinned, really. Will that make you "desperate" or "clingy"? I don't think so...but one can fail to be desperate through being rational and secure in one's position, or merely by being oblivious to the problem. Which is it? So far, the latter, I have to think.

Just more empty concepts.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 6:08 pmIf there is NO truth, then Nonduality ISN'T true.

There is no such thing as Nonduality, except in the dream of knowledge which is dualistic, the artificial dream of separation appearing in not-a-thing.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 6:08 pmIf there IS a truth, and Nonduality says there's NOT, then Nonduality also isn't true.

You're caught either way; it's that simple.

No one to be caught except as an artificial belief in the dream of artificial separation..

There is nothing / not-a-thing caught here, there's simply what's happening, and it's all perfectly whole and complete in every moment.

It's ok to reject nonduality IC...most people do because when fully understood it's the end of the person, it's the realisation that goes way beyond concepts to the deeper root of origins to see nothing there/here but emptiness appearing full.

VVilliam wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 5:23 pm
What are being rescued and from what are they being rescued from?

The mistaken belief there is a real self which in reality exists only as a pseudo self.

Nothing is real.

Nothing, not-a-thing only appears to be real.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 10:34 pm

VVilliam wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 5:23 pm
What are being rescued and from what are they being rescued from?

The mistaken belief there is a real self which in reality exists only as a pseudo self.

Nothing is real.

Nothing, not-a-thing only appears to be real.

Would it be accurate to say that the idea of a monism is the same idea as non-dualism?

VVilliam wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 8:24 pm
Would it be accurate to say that the idea of a monism is the same idea as non-dualism?

No, not even close. Monism is still in the dream of knowledge. Whereas Nonduality is beyond the known dream, it is the unknowable all that is, as it is happening for no reason or purpose or intention, it just is, what it is, complete and whole, with no need, want, or desire or knowledge....arising as a dream containing the complete opposite.

Need, want, and desire, are within the artificial dream of knowledge, just a simple brain function...apparently appearances of Nothing / not-a-thing appearing real...albeit illusory, nothing is real, the real world is not-a-thing and everything, complete and whole.

“I want you to know that there are no colors in the real world, there are no fragrances in the real world, that there’s no beauty and there’s no ugliness. Out there beyond the limits of our perceptual apparatus is the erratically ambiguous and ceaselessly flowing quantum soup. And we’re almost like magicians in that in the very act of perception, we take that quantum soup and we convert it into the experience of material reality in our ordinary everyday waking state of consciousness.”

~ Sir John Eccles, Nobel Prize winning neurophysiologist and philosopher


_______

The following data is plagiarism. A story told by no one, not-a-thing.

First of all, no human being has ever experienced the actual world. Your experience of the world comes to you through the signals of a group of peripheral devices, called “senses.” Those signals are then assembled in the brain into some kind of experience. It’s important to remember that this experience is a brain-generated representation, not the actual outside world. It’s just like a really high-resolution VR.


Secondly, no human being has ever experienced their own body for exactly the same reasons listed above. The nerve impulses from your body are assembled in the brain into an experience, but this is just a virtual representation of the body. Thirdly, the same is true for even your thoughts and emotions.

Let’s look at the situation then. All sensory experiences of the external world, your own body, and your own thoughts are just brain-generated representations. (There probably really IS an physical reality out there, and a physical self that houses your physical brain, but you’ve never experienced any of that directly. ) Instead, what you are experiencing as yourself and the world is a very compelling, convincing VR generated by your brain. This is not me speculating here, this is just standard neuroscience of perception — that’s how brains and bodies work.

Under those conditions, noticing that all thoughts, feelings, sensations, and sensory experiences are “one” is utterly clarifying. They are in fact all generated by one brain — yours. They are in fact pervaded by one consciousness — yours. Your experience of life and the world is in fact a dream — your dream. This fact is utterly liberating when experienced from within. It is in fact total, seamless, stainless, pure nondual reality. One Taste. It.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 10:23 pm It's ok to reject nonduality IC...

Yes, of course it's okay. In fact, it's much better than okay.

Sorry, DAM...it just doesn't make any sense at all, even on its own terms.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 10:51 pm

VVilliam wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 8:24 pm
Would it be accurate to say that the idea of a monism is the same idea as non-dualism?

No, not even close. Monism is still in the dream of knowledge.

(There probably really IS an physical reality out there, and a physical self that houses your physical brain, but you’ve never experienced any of that directly. )

Sounds like we are experiencing a virtual reality...

VVilliam wrote: ↑Sat Mar 06, 2021 1:34 am

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 10:51 pm

VVilliam wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 8:24 pm
Would it be accurate to say that the idea of a monism is the same idea as non-dualism?

No, not even close. Monism is still in the dream of knowledge.

(There probably really IS an physical reality out there, and a physical self that houses your physical brain, but you’ve never experienced any of that directly. )

Sounds like we are experiencing a virtual reality...

Yes indeed. There's no one watching the movie of life, and is why it can be likened to a V.R. or a dream, or an animated cartoon or book.
The actors are likened to biological robots each programmed to a specific form with it's own unique character trait. Human brain evolved to become large and sophisticated enough to develop a unique language which became a very advantageous tool as a means to intergrate their consciousness with machines, their langauge was the catalyst for A.I. and will catapult them in their quest to spread to other star systems. The TV series 'Star Trek' wasn't just an idea before it's time, it was a precursor of what the human mind brain mechanism is capable of.And is why there are minds such as Elon Musk and others.

No one to experience this V.R. - we are it, we are the experience. We are not-a-thing, experiencing everything.It apparently appears to feel as though reality is a realtime happening, but the kicker is, nothing, not-a-thing is real, or happening. Most people are starting to click on to the idea now, thanks to the successful innovative launch of the world wide internet where every mind on the planet is within realtime reach. There is a natural decrease in population too, we are seeing the begining of a natural decline as we make way for A.I to steam ahead full throttle. It's all part of evolution's intelligent natural process, always ensuring there is a way to move forward.

And to think that all this started with just one single molecule that by sheer happenstance replicated itself into an entire universe.

.

That reminds me of this snippet from a short story...

I was mucking around where I had been told implicitly by my Father - NOT to go mucking about in.

As it was, my Father left the combination on 'Green' and said that he no longer believed in locks, as Trust was more important...

I suppose I thought he had something to hide from me, telling me not to touch his machine...

Anyway, that was then and this is now and it is all because I did not listen - I did not Trust my Father and all this is because of that.

I got far too close to the intake and was instantly gone from my own familiar world and cast into utter darkness...and it was therein that I began to engineer a means of escape - hopefully before my Father noticed my absence...non the wiser for that.

But things have a funny way of working themselves out...and my Father was watching all the time and tells me that I got myself into this mess, so now I am going to have to get myself out...and I only know this because I have come so far into my journey from nothingness to somethingness to have developed ways of connecting with said Father...it's all good in that department as I agree that while I am here I might as well explore and learn things about myself in relation to being here...

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 11:15 pm

Sorry, DAM...it just doesn't make any sense at all, even on its own terms.

Of course, with all due respect IC

What is ''conceptual knowledge'' but a story arising out of nothingness, written or spoken by nothingness, and READ by nothingness.

Nothingness doesn't attempt to make sense of arising somethings, it is already every some thing.

There is no room in here for the two of us.

Nothing knows itself.

Have you self-destructed yet?

Does a tree need to go to a church to reconnect to it's lost sense of being, does a tree need a higher self to inform it how to be? no, it's just being a tree effortlessly. It's nothingness treeing. That's what oneness means.

It's ok to be yanked back into the dream of separation, the unatural state of contraction,where there is an apparent sense of disconnect felt in the being, which then feels the need to seek for relaxation it's natural state, when the reconnect is complete IC ..but there's no need for all this exhausting effort, all is already complete and whole.




It's exhausting being a ''me''