Philosophy Now Forum

Nick_A wrote: ↑Sat Aug 29, 2020 10:47 pm So IC agrees with Simone as to the limitations of teachers.

No, Nick...IC agrees with what IC already knows for sure, based on years and years of experience.

If SW has expressed any similar opinions, it's a matter of utter indifference to IC.

Nick_A wrote: ↑Sat Aug 29, 2020 10:47 pm So IC agrees with Simone as to the limitations of teachers. Will wonders never cease. But where in public education are the teachers who know what it means to get out of the cave who won't be persecuted for such intolerable assertions? If they cannot be found is there a greater form of child abuse than politically correct indoctrination?

To answer your last question, yes.

commonsense wrote: ↑Sun Aug 30, 2020 12:00 am

Nick_A wrote: ↑Sat Aug 29, 2020 10:47 pm So IC agrees with Simone as to the limitations of teachers. Will wonders never cease. But where in public education are the teachers who know what it means to get out of the cave who won't be persecuted for such intolerable assertions? If they cannot be found is there a greater form of child abuse than politically correct indoctrination?

To answer your last question, yes.

I'm not sure what your "yes" refers to. Does it mean there is a greater form of child abuse or there isn't. I think indoctrination is as low as it goes and Hitler used it effectively

“These boys and girls enter our organizations [at] ten years of age, and often for the first time get a little fresh air; after four years of the Young Folk they go on to the Hitler Youth, where we have them for another four years . . . And even if they are still not complete National Socialists, they go to Labor Service and are smoothed out there for another six, seven months . . . And whatever class consciousness or social status might still be left . . . the Wehrmacht [German armed forces] will take care of that.”
—Adolf Hitler (1938)

Nick_A wrote: ↑Sun Aug 30, 2020 1:01 am

commonsense wrote: ↑Sun Aug 30, 2020 12:00 am

Nick_A wrote: ↑Sat Aug 29, 2020 10:47 pm So IC agrees with Simone as to the limitations of teachers. Will wonders never cease. But where in public education are the teachers who know what it means to get out of the cave who won't be persecuted for such intolerable assertions? If they cannot be found is there a greater form of child abuse than politically correct indoctrination?

To answer your last question, yes.

I'm not sure what your "yes" refers to. Does it mean there is a greater form of child abuse or there isn't. I think indoctrination is as low as it goes and Hitler used it effectively

“These boys and girls enter our organizations [at] ten years of age, and often for the first time get a little fresh air; after four years of the Young Folk they go on to the Hitler Youth, where we have them for another four years . . . And even if they are still not complete National Socialists, they go to Labor Service and are smoothed out there for another six, seven months . . . And whatever class consciousness or social status might still be left . . . the Wehrmacht [German armed forces] will take care of that.”
—Adolf Hitler (1938)

Pedophilia trumps your hyperbole.

commonsense wrote: ↑Sun Aug 30, 2020 1:14 am

Nick_A wrote: ↑Sun Aug 30, 2020 1:01 am

commonsense wrote: ↑Sun Aug 30, 2020 12:00 am
To answer your last question, yes.

I'm not sure what your "yes" refers to. Does it mean there is a greater form of child abuse or there isn't. I think indoctrination is as low as it goes and Hitler used it effectively

“These boys and girls enter our organizations [at] ten years of age, and often for the first time get a little fresh air; after four years of the Young Folk they go on to the Hitler Youth, where we have them for another four years . . . And even if they are still not complete National Socialists, they go to Labor Service and are smoothed out there for another six, seven months . . . And whatever class consciousness or social status might still be left . . . the Wehrmacht [German armed forces] will take care of that.”
—Adolf Hitler (1938)

Pedophila trumps your hyperbole.

I think you underestimate the harm caused by corrupting the mind. It seems normal since it is so common. The real lasting effect of pedophila is what it does to the mind of such a young person.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Aug 29, 2020 9:29 pm

Belinda wrote: ↑Sat Aug 29, 2020 8:37 pm Teachers are education experts.

That's naive, I'm afraid. Teachers are only experts in pedagogy, and rather unevenly, even in that.

They have no special training or expertise in morals, sexuality or good judgment. They're just ordinary folks. The parents have the relationship and know their own children far better than their teachers ever will, and the teachers are essentially paid strangers...who have no right or justification to interfere with parental rights, and no wisdom to do so.

I know this for a fact.

There are laws to prevent religious or political bias by teachers ,and indoctrination of school children.

Actually, there are none. To teach contrary to a parent's ideology is not only allowed but encouraged. Look what your pal did to that Muslim family. And they do exactly the same to the children of conservatives, or Jews, or Christians, or anybody but the liberal Left. In many places, a child could wear a BLM t-shirt or hat, or a "Free Palestine" or even a picture of Che Guevara the Socialist mass-murderer to school, but never a religious message, or "Support Israel" or "Make America Great Again" shirt. Why is that?

Teachers are permitted to indoctrinate in the creeds and beliefs favoured by the school boards. I've seen it often, and egregiously done. There is an arrogance to school systems, a belief that whatever ideology they choose to indoctrinate children in, it cannot ever BE indoctrination, because (as they suppose) its true, reasonable and just.

Now, I have no truck with Islam, and I have no special desire to see their creed advanced; but parental rights must supercede the imperious, self-righteous dicta of the school system. So it's wrong to subvert parents, especially while not admitting that's what's being done. And the school system routinely does exactly the same sort of maneuver with all other groups; they arogate to themselves the opportunity to dictate what young and impressionable children get to hear by way of ideology.

If you don't approve of LGBT being taught you should vote for a political party that agrees with you.

LGBT is taught because LGBT exists, and children from LGBT homes must not be bullied by children who have been taught to believe they are morally superior. It is important both for peaceful schools and for happy kids that a variety of lifestyles are accepted and people are loved.

Your condemnation of educational expertise is unjustifiable. Most parents have neither the experience nor the academic learning of professionals, and trust the professionals to deliver education to their children. It is remarkable how many people think anyone can teach, but the same people don't think a layman knows how to be a proper medic. People have the right to educate at home and home educators have to comply with publicly -accredited standards of method and curriculum.

It is entirely possible if not probable that ignorant people will win the elections in the developed world. This is what happens when ignorant people panic about big problems. There has been rioting by European ignoramuses about the imposition of public hygiene restrictions, on the grounds that coronavirus is a hoax.

Nick_A wrote: ↑Sun Aug 30, 2020 2:31 am

commonsense wrote: ↑Sun Aug 30, 2020 1:14 am

Nick_A wrote: ↑Sun Aug 30, 2020 1:01 am

I'm not sure what your "yes" refers to. Does it mean there is a greater form of child abuse or there isn't. I think indoctrination is as low as it goes and Hitler used it effectively

Pedophila trumps your hyperbole.

I think you underestimate the harm caused by corrupting the mind. It seems normal since it is so common. The real lasting effect of pedophila is what it does to the mind of such a young person.

Indoctrination is more harmful than child sex abuse???

Indoctrination is more harmful than victimization???

Mind control is worse than being made powerless to protect oneself from sexual assault???

Nick_A wrote: ↑Sat Aug 29, 2020 10:47 pm is there a greater form of child abuse than politically correct indoctrination?

To suggest that there is no greater form of child abuse than politically correct indoctrination is either I’ll-suited hyperbole or an ignorant underestimation of pedophilia’s effects. To suggest such is depraved.

Indoctrination is more harmful than victimization???

Six of one, half a dozen of the other, best I can tell.

Child rape is viscerally, in-your-face, disgusting; brain washing is less obviously offensive; but both amount to the same thing: turning a person into sumthin' less than.

Friggin' slavery, both.


school

The solution is obvious: teachers ought to stick with the basics -- reading, writing, arithmetic -- and leave culture & morality to parents; alternately, close the public schools, let private systems carry the water.


LGBT is taught because LGBT exists

Lesbians, gays, bisexuals, & transvestites/transgenders surely do exist, as deviations.

They shouldn't be condemned, certainly; but they ought not be praised or excused or elevated either.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sun Aug 30, 2020 2:20 pm Indoctrination is more harmful than victimization???

Six of one, half a dozen of the other, best I can tell.

Which one causes suicide?

commonsense wrote: ↑Sun Aug 30, 2020 2:28 pm

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sun Aug 30, 2020 2:20 pm Indoctrination is more harmful than victimization???

Six of one, half a dozen of the other, best I can tell.

Which one causes suicide?

Hell if I know.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sun Aug 30, 2020 2:20 pm Indoctrination is more harmful than victimization???

Six of one, half a dozen of the other, best I can tell.

Child rape is viscerally, in-your-face, disgusting; brain washing is less obviously offensive; but both amount to the same thing: turning a person into sumthin' less than.

Friggin' slavery, both.


school

The solution is obvious: teachers ought to stick with the basics -- reading, writing, arithmetic -- and leave culture & morality to parents; alternately, close the public schools, let private systems carry the water.


LGBT is taught because LGBT exists

Lesbians, gays, bisexuals, & transvestites/transgenders surely do exist, as deviations.

They shouldn't be condemned, certainly; but they ought not be praised or excused or elevated either.

Deviations from what a majority do is not the same as immoral or illegal, but are normal family structures. It would be a great pity for some children to be taught they were better than others,as they might then become bigots or bullies.

Belinda wrote: ↑Sun Aug 30, 2020 9:40 am If you don't approve of LGBT being taught you should vote for a political party that agrees with you.

Let's suppose you're in a conservative country. Suppose I said to you, "If you want women to vote, you should vote for a political party that wants to let them?"

How would you respond? Would you not rightly point out to me that the majority is tyrannizing women, so your vote is not going to succeed in getting the vote for women? So my answer is unhelpful, isn't it?

The Muslim parents, if they don't like LGBT being taught to their children, have no recourse to prevent it. A vote will not get them anything, unless the majority agrees with them.

Your condemnation of educational expertise is unjustifiable.

Actually, I'm quite certain you're wrong about that. I know whereof I speak.

Most parents have neither the experience nor the academic learning of professionals, and trust the professionals to deliver education to their children.

That's what makes the betrayal of that trust so hideous. Parents send their children, trusting that the "professionals" will behave themselves. And some do. But some take it as an open opportunity to propagandize, which they fail even to admit to themselves that they are doing, since they always regard their own beliefs as "the truth," and they think they can't possibly be propagandizing because their own motives are so "pure" and their message is so "true."

Of course, they're often wrong. But a great many are unaware of it.

Consider your position that Muslim parents should have their kids indotrinated in LGBT dogma. Would you even, for a second, consider that you might be wrong about that? And would you ever entertain the thought that pushing it against the parents' wishes was invasive, sexually-interfering, usurping parental rights, and not a proper thing for a public school employee to be doing?

Or would you just say, "Well, those Muslim parents are just ignorant and prejudiced, and it's my job as a public educator to make sure their kids are indoctrinated with my sexual mores instead"?

It is remarkable how many people think anyone can teach,

True enough.

People have the right to educate at home and home educators have to comply with publicly -accredited standards of method and curriculum.

Well, yes...but the latter get full public funding, professionalism, and resources from the public purse; and the former are left all on their own, while still having to make a living. So it's nowhere near a level playing field.

But still, there are some parents who are (rightly) so sick of the propagandizing of the public school system that they will bear that financial burden, train themselves, and raise and teach their own children, at considerable personal sacrifice. So it does happen.