Philosophy Now Forum

tapaticmadness wrote: ↑Fri Apr 17, 2020 6:56 am

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Fri Apr 17, 2020 6:38 am

tapaticmadness wrote: ↑Fri Apr 17, 2020 6:16 am

Every holy man that I have ever encountered has been surrounded by scandals, including the Little Buddha here in Nepal. Tantra and sex and violence go together, though many Trantriks try to present a respectable interpretation of that. A simulacrum of the real thing. Your moralism is not a real part of Hindu religion, in spite of what you read in books. Religion and the gods are all immoral. The atheists are right about that.

Hinduism is not a religion per se.
It is merely a term that represent all the religions 'Within of the Hindus river' in the Indian Continent.
As such within all these Hindu religions [including tantric], there will be those that are aligned with the 'good' while some will tend toward the 'evil.'

I had argued in the Morality section, empirical evidences of humanity has verified the trend of humanity since it emerged as trending towards the 'good' and avoiding what is 'evil'.

Therefore humanity must avoid what is identified as 'evil' inclined religions within Hinduism and promote those that are promoting the good.
Note,

• Virtue, right conduct, ethics and morality are part of the complex concept Hindus call Dharma - everything that is essential for people, the world and nature to exist and prosper together, in harmony.
  -wiki

Thus where there is immoral sex, violence and evil within any Hindu religions, then it must be avoided.
Note one of the extreme religion of Hinduism;

• The cannibal monks of Varanasi: Indian tribe feasts on human flesh, drink from skulls and live among the dead. Feared across India, the exiled Aghori monks of Varanasi feast on human flesh and reside near cremation sites in search of spiritual enlightenment.
  https://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/trav ... tribe.html

• The Aghori (Sanskrit aghora)[2] are a small group of vamacharic ascetic Shaiva sadhus. They engage in post-mortem rituals. They often dwell in charnel grounds, smear cremation ashes on their bodies, and use bones from human corpses for crafting kapalas (skull cups) and jewellery. Their practices are sometimes considered contradictory to orthodox Hinduism.
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aghori

Surely in time, the Indian Government must ban such an evil inclined religion and group.

Yes, I know all about the agori or sadhus. Villagers call them jhogis (yogis) and the children are afraid of them. The adults will tell you that they have powerful mantras and you must give them something to eat or they will utter a bad spell against you. There is no way the government will ever banish them. They are an integral part of religion. Here is a very good book on the topic - https://www.dropbox.com/s/c2tmnhgx37ogj ... e.pdf?dl=0

• The Federation of Indian Rationalist Associations (FIRA) is an umbrella body of 83 (as of 2012)[1] rationalist, atheist, skeptic, secularist and scientist organisations in India.
  
  As an apex body of rationalist organisations, it is committed to the development of scientific temper and humanism in India, involved in promoting tolerance, critical thinking, women's rights, secularization, and freedom of expression, and fighting against the Caste system of Hinduism and its violence (especially towards Dalit population), superstition, pseudoscience, and child marriage.
  -wiki

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Fri Apr 17, 2020 7:18 am

tapaticmadness wrote: ↑Fri Apr 17, 2020 6:56 am

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Fri Apr 17, 2020 6:38 am
Hinduism is not a religion per se.
It is merely a term that represent all the religions 'Within of the Hindus river' in the Indian Continent.
As such within all these Hindu religions [including tantric], there will be those that are aligned with the 'good' while some will tend toward the 'evil.'

I had argued in the Morality section, empirical evidences of humanity has verified the trend of humanity since it emerged as trending towards the 'good' and avoiding what is 'evil'.

Therefore humanity must avoid what is identified as 'evil' inclined religions within Hinduism and promote those that are promoting the good.
Note,

• Virtue, right conduct, ethics and morality are part of the complex concept Hindus call Dharma - everything that is essential for people, the world and nature to exist and prosper together, in harmony.
  -wiki

Thus where there is immoral sex, violence and evil within any Hindu religions, then it must be avoided.
Note one of the extreme religion of Hinduism;

• The cannibal monks of Varanasi: Indian tribe feasts on human flesh, drink from skulls and live among the dead. Feared across India, the exiled Aghori monks of Varanasi feast on human flesh and reside near cremation sites in search of spiritual enlightenment.
  https://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/trav ... tribe.html

• The Aghori (Sanskrit aghora)[2] are a small group of vamacharic ascetic Shaiva sadhus. They engage in post-mortem rituals. They often dwell in charnel grounds, smear cremation ashes on their bodies, and use bones from human corpses for crafting kapalas (skull cups) and jewellery. Their practices are sometimes considered contradictory to orthodox Hinduism.
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aghori

Surely in time, the Indian Government must ban such an evil inclined religion and group.

Yes, I know all about the agori or sadhus. Villagers call them jhogis (yogis) and the children are afraid of them. The adults will tell you that they have powerful mantras and you must give them something to eat or they will utter a bad spell against you. There is no way the government will ever banish them. They are an integral part of religion. Here is a very good book on the topic - https://www.dropbox.com/s/c2tmnhgx37ogj ... e.pdf?dl=0

Noted the book.

There are many types of Sadhus and the Aghori are merely one of the perverted ones.

At present in India and all over the world vulnerable people are exploited by the so-called Godman.
I believe if the Government do not banish them, they will disappear by themselves in time when people are more critical minded.
With the internet more people are being informed of these Godmen and fake religions, example below;

The Full List of Fake Indian Babas Who’ve Been Blacklisted
https://www.thequint.com/news/india/fak ... lacklisted

Note:

• The Federation of Indian Rationalist Associations (FIRA) is an umbrella body of 83 (as of 2012)[1] rationalist, atheist, skeptic, secularist and scientist organisations in India.
  
  As an apex body of rationalist organisations, it is committed to the development of scientific temper and humanism in India, involved in promoting tolerance, critical thinking, women's rights, secularization, and freedom of expression, and fighting against the Caste system of Hinduism and its violence (especially towards Dalit population), superstition, pseudoscience, and child marriage.
  -wiki

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Fri Apr 17, 2020 7:18 am

• Virtue, right conduct, ethics and morality are part of the complex concept Hindus call Dharma - everything that is essential for people, the world and nature to exist and prosper together, in harmony.
  -wiki

tapaticmadness wrote: ↑Fri Apr 17, 2020 7:22 am

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Fri Apr 17, 2020 7:18 am There are many types of Sadhus and the Aghori are merely one of the perverted ones.

At present in India and all over the world vulnerable people are exploited by the so-called Godman.
I believe if the Government do not banish them, they will disappear by themselves in time when people are more critical minded.
With the internet more people are being informed of these Godmen and fake religions, example below;

The Full List of Fake Indian Babas Who’ve Been Blacklisted
https://www.thequint.com/news/india/fak ... lacklisted

Note:

• The Federation of Indian Rationalist Associations (FIRA) is an umbrella body of 83 (as of 2012)[1] rationalist, atheist, skeptic, secularist and scientist organisations in India.
  
  As an apex body of rationalist organisations, it is committed to the development of scientific temper and humanism in India, involved in promoting tolerance, critical thinking, women's rights, secularization, and freedom of expression, and fighting against the Caste system of Hinduism and its violence (especially towards Dalit population), superstition, pseudoscience, and child marriage.
  -wiki

Pointing out to people that certain people are immoral won't work. They already know that. Only people like you are shocked at that immorality. Most people here think it is just part of the religion. Don't you know the Thugs of Kali? The gods have a demonic side. Everybody knows that.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Fri Apr 17, 2020 7:47 am

tapaticmadness wrote: ↑Fri Apr 17, 2020 7:22 am

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Fri Apr 17, 2020 7:18 am There are many types of Sadhus and the Aghori are merely one of the perverted ones.

At present in India and all over the world vulnerable people are exploited by the so-called Godman.
I believe if the Government do not banish them, they will disappear by themselves in time when people are more critical minded.
With the internet more people are being informed of these Godmen and fake religions, example below;

The Full List of Fake Indian Babas Who’ve Been Blacklisted
https://www.thequint.com/news/india/fak ... lacklisted

Note:

• The Federation of Indian Rationalist Associations (FIRA) is an umbrella body of 83 (as of 2012)[1] rationalist, atheist, skeptic, secularist and scientist organisations in India.
  
  As an apex body of rationalist organisations, it is committed to the development of scientific temper and humanism in India, involved in promoting tolerance, critical thinking, women's rights, secularization, and freedom of expression, and fighting against the Caste system of Hinduism and its violence (especially towards Dalit population), superstition, pseudoscience, and child marriage.
  -wiki

Pointing out to people that certain people are immoral won't work. They already know that. Only people like you are shocked at that immorality. Most people here think it is just part of the religion. Don't you know the Thugs of Kali? The gods have a demonic side. Everybody knows that.

Not everyone is informed.
Pointing out with justification is information will be useful for the uninformed and they can then make their own rational decision.

Yes, many would acknowledge is part of their society but as you mentioned there is an element of 'fear' and 'terror' associated with them.
If the fear and terror is due to ignorance, then the public should be informed of the truth about these feared groups.
If they [the Aghori, Kali, etc.] truly promote activities that are fearful, then morally humanity should get rid whatever is generating fear by human activities, ideologies and beliefs.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Fri Apr 17, 2020 6:58 am

tapaticmadness wrote: ↑Fri Apr 17, 2020 6:41 am We live in a time of high moralism. Everyone preaches high minded ethics and humanistic morality. We also live in a time of nominalism and idealism. Moreover, atheism is the soup du jour. Young intellectuals now feel they must be atheistic to be accepted by their peers. Every time has its own way of being disruptive and anti-establishment. I am able to present my ideas with phenomenological rigor. Still, there are certain things that are rock bottom and cannot be proven. That the world I see is real and not a figment of my imagination is one of those.

The fact is humanity is naturally driven in progressing and trending [very slowly] towards higher and higher morality with the greater triggering of the DNA-based inherent faculty of morality with the human brain.
Note the clue re Mirror Neurons in the human brain [as those of the higher primates].

• In addition, Iacoboni has argued that mirror neurons are the neural basis of the human capacity for emotions such as empathy.
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_neuron

So it is not a choice but increasing morality is the natural progression of evolution.
Note the positive trend in the reduction of chattel slavery since 1000 to 500 years ago to the present which is driven by the invisible hand of morality within.
Why we need to philosophize about it is to find ways to expedite the moral process to counter the increasing volatility of evil rising within the world at present.

Theism at present is still a critical necessity for the majority due to the intrinsic inherent and unavoidable existential crisis.
Thus peer-pressure atheism is not effective at present and you will note many such atheists naturally are driven to theism when the internal existential crisis is triggered strongly. It is said, "there are no atheist in foxholes."
Those who are able to extricate themselves from theism into atheism more effectively are those who has the inclination for critical thinking to note God is illusory [evil in some cases] and they are able to rise above the pull of the existential crisis.

Even then the most hardcore atheist can fall back into theism especially during old age when his rational inhibitors are overridden by the forces of the existential crisis.

Note;

• https://www.livescience.com/19971-belie ... m-age.html
  Across the world, people have varying levels of belief (and disbelief) in God, with some nations being more devout than others. But new research reveals one constant across parts of the globe: As people age, their belief in God seems to increase.

This is why the world one time most notable hardcore atheist - Anthony Flew turned to God [deism] and shock the whole atheist community.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antony_Flew


Btw, note how I argued most of my points above and elsewhere with arguments and evidences not just based on personal views [opinions, belief] without supporting evidence.

tapaticmadness wrote: ↑Fri Apr 17, 2020 7:35 am

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Fri Apr 17, 2020 7:18 am

• Virtue, right conduct, ethics and morality are part of the complex concept Hindus call Dharma - everything that is essential for people, the world and nature to exist and prosper together, in harmony.
  -wiki

According to Tantra, the only way to get siddhi or yogic powers, vamacarya, is to violate the Laws of Dharma. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panchamakara

• Taboo-breaking elements are only practiced literally by "left-hand path" tantrics (vāmācārins), whereas "right-hand path" tantrics (dakṣiṇācārins) oppose these.(Rawson, 1978).
  -wiki

tapaticmadness wrote: ↑Fri Apr 17, 2020 8:04 am

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Fri Apr 17, 2020 6:58 am

tapaticmadness wrote: ↑Fri Apr 17, 2020 6:41 am We live in a time of high moralism. Everyone preaches high minded ethics and humanistic morality. We also live in a time of nominalism and idealism. Moreover, atheism is the soup du jour. Young intellectuals now feel they must be atheistic to be accepted by their peers. Every time has its own way of being disruptive and anti-establishment. I am able to present my ideas with phenomenological rigor. Still, there are certain things that are rock bottom and cannot be proven. That the world I see is real and not a figment of my imagination is one of those.

The fact is humanity is naturally driven in progressing and trending [very slowly] towards higher and higher morality with the greater triggering of the DNA-based inherent faculty of morality with the human brain.
Note the clue re Mirror Neurons in the human brain [as those of the higher primates].

• In addition, Iacoboni has argued that mirror neurons are the neural basis of the human capacity for emotions such as empathy.
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_neuron

So it is not a choice but increasing morality is the natural progression of evolution.
Note the positive trend in the reduction of chattel slavery since 1000 to 500 years ago to the present which is driven by the invisible hand of morality within.
Why we need to philosophize about it is to find ways to expedite the moral process to counter the increasing volatility of evil rising within the world at present.

Theism at present is still a critical necessity for the majority due to the intrinsic inherent and unavoidable existential crisis.
Thus peer-pressure atheism is not effective at present and you will note many such atheists naturally are driven to theism when the internal existential crisis is triggered strongly. It is said, "there are no atheist in foxholes."
Those who are able to extricate themselves from theism into atheism more effectively are those who has the inclination for critical thinking to note God is illusory [evil in some cases] and they are able to rise above the pull of the existential crisis.

Even then the most hardcore atheist can fall back into theism especially during old age when his rational inhibitors are overridden by the forces of the existential crisis.

Note;

• https://www.livescience.com/19971-belie ... m-age.html
  Across the world, people have varying levels of belief (and disbelief) in God, with some nations being more devout than others. But new research reveals one constant across parts of the globe: As people age, their belief in God seems to increase.

This is why the world one time most notable hardcore atheist - Anthony Flew turned to God [deism] and shock the whole atheist community.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antony_Flew


Btw, note how I argued most of my points above and elsewhere with arguments and evidences not just based on personal views [opinions, belief] without supporting evidence.

I think your neurophysiological explanation of man's ethical behavior is pseudo-science.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Fri Apr 17, 2020 8:24 am
[generally accepted]

tapaticmadness wrote: ↑Fri Apr 17, 2020 8:44 am

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Fri Apr 17, 2020 8:24 am
[generally accepted]

You are really big on following the proper path according to high minded people like yourself. I'm sure you also would look down your nose at the poor villagers I know. Magic and deception doesn't seem to be your thing. As a result you will fall into its trap. Your Utopian view of the world is crazy wrong.

• Pastor Dies from COVID-19 After Blasting Social Distancing Measures
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWcajDiGAq0
  He told his congregation not to obey social distancing because God is great and is everywhere to save the believers.
  Not only that he died, he was also responsible in spreading the virus to many others of his followers who had died as well. This is evil arising from theism.
  If critical thinking has been applied, many lives would have been saved.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sat Apr 18, 2020 5:04 am

I understand at present religion, theism and shamanism, magic are beliefs are a critical necessity for the majority of people given their current psychological states.

tapaticmadness wrote: ↑Sat Apr 18, 2020 6:14 am

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sat Apr 18, 2020 5:04 am

I understand at present religion, theism and shamanism, magic are beliefs are a critical necessity for the majority of people given their current psychological states.

Deception means you smile and you are very nice to someone while you are really thinking evil thoughts toward them. I and most religious people suspect, maybe know, that you harbor thoughts of enmity toward religious beliefs and religious people. You see them as weak, as children, in need of comfort and a crutch to help them deal with the troubles of life. Your smiles are deceptive. We would all prefer that you speak the truth of what you really think straight out. We don't need you "kind" help. You are lying. From your high perch you are looking down on us. And toward brown-skinned people who practice magic you have taken on the white man's burden. You are a deceiver.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sat Apr 18, 2020 6:23 am
The usual advice is NOT to interpret the book by its cover.
Surely you are not ignorant of this?
If yes, the onus is on you to note the above advice and make judgment based on what is objective.

I have already mentioned there are pros and cons to religion, theism, magical beliefs and the likes.
At present their pros outweighs their cons.
But the trend - based on evidence - is the cons of the above are moving toward outweighing their pros towards the future.

If you are rational, you should not be swayed by anyone's smile, cry, laugh, or whatever but to rely on evidence to make objective conclusions.

tapaticmadness wrote: ↑Sat Apr 18, 2020 6:40 am

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sat Apr 18, 2020 6:23 am
The usual advice is NOT to interpret the book by its cover.
Surely you are not ignorant of this?
If yes, the onus is on you to note the above advice and make judgment based on what is objective.

I have already mentioned there are pros and cons to religion, theism, magical beliefs and the likes.
At present their pros outweighs their cons.
But the trend - based on evidence - is the cons of the above are moving toward outweighing their pros towards the future.

If you are rational, you should not be swayed by anyone's smile, cry, laugh, or whatever but to rely on evidence to make objective conclusions.

Evidence is too easy to come by. People can always find evidence for whatever their belief is. All over Youtube there are people presenting proof of all kinds of things. I don't believe in your "objective" judgment. Consider Sherlock Holmes. He sought evidence. But Arthur Conan Doyle believed in the paranormal. What his Sherlock was really doing is what psychics call psychometry, which means that they handle and stare at some object that belongs to someone and wait for visions of what really happened to come to them.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:39 am
Why do you have to bring in fiction to justify your point?

It is not "MY" objective judgment.

What is objective is Justified True Beliefs is that which is verified within the specific Framework of knowledge.
A specific Framework of knowledge with its proven record will generate its own confidence level.

Science is at present the most reliable Justified True Beliefs varying upon the processes the belief has been put through.
You don't believe in Science objective judgment?

Other than Science there are other empirical evidences which has been collected over the ages and are very obvious.
Yes there are questionable evidences which can easily be discounted.
But there are loads of negatives with Religions, theism, magical thinking as supported with evidence, e.g. killings committed by believers in the name of their God and deity. You don't believe these are evidences that are objective.