Philosophy Now Forum

Dubious wrote: ↑Sat Nov 24, 2018 10:15 am

Greta wrote: ↑Thu Nov 22, 2018 10:23 pm Then again, it may be that the time wasted in the dark ages and other retrograde periods made the difference. Perhaps if humans had managed to be a few hundred years' more advanced by this time, maybe our current wicked problems would be more manageable?

Who knows! Perhaps we'd already be extinct or in some way debilitated enough to have any further influence on the future. But it's an interesting speculation. Carl Sagan, I recall, mentioned something like it when he contemplated the idea that humans may already have landed on the moon by the time Dante wrote the Divine Comedy if the Ancient World would have been allowed to continue its intellectual momentum. I can imagine the possibility of that IF printing presss were available to make those societies more secular in its distribution of knowledge.

Yes, there's no doubt many "ifs", but that period does seem to be a lost opportunity. However, it's also possible that there were percolations underneath, pushing forward that created the pressure for renaissances to break the intellectual stasis.

Dubious wrote: ↑Sat Nov 24, 2018 10:15 am

Greta wrote: ↑Thu Nov 22, 2018 10:23 pmBTW, it is almost certain that another intelligent species would take our place if we died out, not just possible. It took just 60 million years for the shrewlike monotreme-like mammals that survived the dinos' asteroid and supervolcanoes to evolve to today's mammalian line. After each extinction, recovery is exponentially faster because the existing DNA (even in simple organisms) is more developed. I expect that, if we died out, rats would start the next line leading to intelligence, and they would be far more intelligent and robust than the protothera. Thus the next emergences would occur much more quickly again.

This sounds extremely farfetched! I've never heard of any biologist, paleontologist, anthropologist or evolutionist claim that intelligent life would once again assert itself if we go defunct. Frankly, it doesn't make sense because a new evolutionary period would have to commence. As you mention, it may not start with slime ponds and bacterial formations but its operation would still be so complex as not to follow it's previous course in creating intelligence. Evolution is subject to a lot of random events which influence the outcome that to presuppose the near certain appearance of intelligence a second time around is nearly impossible to fathom....which is not to say it absolutely can't happen, only that it has an extremely low probability of happening.

Actually, what I'm saying is completely orthodox. Consider that trilobites appeared ≈500m years ago and died out ≈250m years ago. Dinos first appeared ≈240m years ago and died out ≈60m years ago. It was ≈45m years ago that the first dominant giant mammals appeared.

If mammals (incl. humans) go extinct soon, then why would you assume that life won't bounce back, and in yet more sophisticated forms? How is that far fetched? Yours is the speculative view, suggesting a new and novel variation in evolution. My speculation here is orthodox - observing patterns and using them to try to predict future events.

TimeSeeker wrote: ↑Sat Nov 24, 2018 9:34 pmI have no baseline from which to even begin to describe them. Except - patterns!

Yes, patterns are incredibly fundamental, as noted by Plato et al. That's what's happening in our heads - dynamic configurations of neuronal activity that shaped previous dynamic configurations (conditioning) like a river's flow follows the trench it creates.

There will no doubt be much more to this story as we try to understand why particular patterns of mental activity produce particular states of being. A long way to go here.

commonsense wrote: ↑Sun Nov 18, 2018 1:36 am WRT may mean with respect to

WRT to is a typo

mush is must

fo is of

yes good call, Solipsism is something one on this forum should now about however.

Davyboi wrote: ↑Sun Nov 18, 2018 2:47 am

commonsense wrote: ↑Sun Nov 18, 2018 1:36 am WRT may mean with respect to

WRT to is a typo

mush is must

fo is of

So what is SOLIPSISM then?

the concept that yourself is all that is provable. you, yourself (in this case me of course, and I'm just replying to "you" who is just me in another guise) as existing.

all others you know/love are via your mind - and so maybe only your mind "talking to itself".

which? not knowable.

so you cannot prove others exist.

nor dissprove.

all you can prove is that you (actually - me - I'm just posting to myself here) exist. all others are via your mind - be they actually existing or a creation of your mind - either way its you that creates them per your perspective).

Solipsism is that there is only one perspective - yours (mine BTW) - it makes no claim that others exist outside of your mind or not. only claim is that you (I) exist - at this moment (you(I) am the architect of all knowledge of history/science/etc..........all via your (my) mind).


assumption of "others" is a matter of faith and not provable via Empiricism/Solipsism.

I know I exist, but do you? - you can prove it!

Greta wrote: ↑Sun Nov 18, 2018 4:17 am

Davyboi wrote: ↑Sun Nov 18, 2018 2:47 am

commonsense wrote: ↑Sun Nov 18, 2018 1:36 am WRT may mean with respect to

WRT to is a typo

mush is must

fo is of

So what is SOLIPSISM then?

When I first started on philosophy forums I simply Googled when I didn't know something, and still occasionally need to do so. The danger is that the answer raises further questions, and before you know it you've spent over an hour just delving.

Depending on the context, solipsism may mean self-focus at the expense of acknowledging others' interests to the belief that the self is the only thing that we can known for certain to exist, although I found the inconvenient aspect of that approach is all those many billions of other selves, both human and nonhuman.

its a product of Empricism - and nothing more.

what is provable.

Descarte (or myself - via first learning of (or inventing) "descarte" around 20 yrs of age came to the same concept i did 4 yr prior (before i learned of "him") - of course "he" digress later and invented all sorts of crap - and ended up less of a thinker than he originally was (assuming he ever existed outside of myself of course).

Walker wrote: ↑Sun Nov 18, 2018 5:28 am

Greta wrote: ↑Sun Nov 18, 2018 4:17 am

Davyboi wrote: ↑Sun Nov 18, 2018 2:47 am

So what is SOLIPSISM then?

When I first started on philosophy forums I simply Googled when I didn't know something, and still occasionally need to do so. The danger is that the answer raises further questions, and before you know it you've spent over an hour just delving.

Depending on the context, solipsism may mean self-focus at the expense of acknowledging others' interests to the belief that the self is the only thing that we can known for certain to exist, although I found the inconvenient aspect of that approach is all those many billions of other selves, both human and nonhuman.

"Depending on the context, solipsism may mean ..."

Good grief. After such generous qualifiers, you could say anything.

Well, besides that, the billions is a rather large detail.

Ignoring it would have been too sloppy.
How do solipsists explain it?

Solipsists (singular) - me, does not need to validate your existance nor the other 7 billion purported to exist on a thing called Earth currently.

I may be the inventor of you, the 7 billion, and earth itself - or not.

I know "I AM" as for you the 7 bill and Earth herself - you/they/she may, (or not) - since Empiricism dissallows any proving - and so you may be me talking to myself (and BTW per the definition of "me" - you are talking to me via my mind - whether you "ARE" outside of me or is just "Me talking to myself" - is not knowable.

Its literally irrelivant if you exist or not - per me/myself and I - I'm all, and you are just a product of my consciencesness - maybe/7 bill folks/Earth/UNIVERSE actually exists.

or maybe they do not and I am alone and create all those things myself.

per definition, all of the external world is via my "mind" - so either way if you exist or not, it really is irrelivant.

I'd like to assume you exist BTW - but my wishes do not make things so. I wish i belevied in God/Gods - but still Athiest.

so my wishes are irrelivant to Truth.

Greta wrote: ↑Sun Nov 18, 2018 7:08 am

Walker wrote: ↑Sun Nov 18, 2018 5:28 am

Greta wrote: ↑Sun Nov 18, 2018 4:17 am
When I first started on philosophy forums I simply Googled when I didn't know something, and still occasionally need to do so. The danger is that the answer raises further questions, and before you know it you've spent over an hour just delving.

Depending on the context, solipsism may mean self-focus at the expense of acknowledging others' interests to the belief that the self is the only thing that we can known for certain to exist, although I found the inconvenient aspect of that approach is all those many billions of other selves, both human and nonhuman.

"Depending on the context, solipsism may mean ..."

Good grief. After such generous qualifiers, you could say anything.

Well, besides that, the billions is a rather large detail.

Ignoring it would have been too sloppy.
How do solipsists explain it?

You're a rock fan. Don't you remember Robert Plant's observation: "'Cause you know sometimes words have two meanings"?

The word's meaning is context sensitive and the definition I provided in the first instance is adequate and roughly accords with dictionaries.

never was a Led Zeb fan - though of the right generation (always/still do think - the forgotten now Suppertramp as much better rock group).

per your reply about "words have two meanings" - this are a vocal from Stairway to Heaven? yes? and so refered obliquly(sp) to "reverse masking" - reverse vocals...............which was included in that particular song (and started by The Beatles (who were better than both Supertramp and esp/ Led Zep! (who remain overatted as much as Supertramp are underatted) Sargent Pepper.

Greta wrote: ↑Sun Nov 18, 2018 4:21 am

Dubious wrote: ↑Sun Nov 18, 2018 3:47 am... any consciousness which demands value in existence.

Those who need to know are clearly not happy. You don't question existence when you are happy with it. In that case life's purpose feels self-evident - a gift in which we can revel. When life sucks, one might reasonably wonder if there's a point to the suffering.

wise post concur Madam! - if you were here with me, we could share a beer.

since you are not (where are you - maybe asking is none of my business? - fogged over a few beers, think you my be an Ausie,) not matter, drink alone - heres to you madam! one of good mind and character! and most posts worthy of reading!

more than i can say for myself ;-/.

but working on improving.

gaffo wrote: ↑Sun Nov 25, 2018 2:45 am

Greta wrote: ↑Sun Nov 18, 2018 4:21 am

Dubious wrote: ↑Sun Nov 18, 2018 3:47 am... any consciousness which demands value in existence.

Those who need to know are clearly not happy. You don't question existence when you are happy with it. In that case life's purpose feels self-evident - a gift in which we can revel. When life sucks, one might reasonably wonder if there's a point to the suffering.

wise post concur Madam! - if you were here with me, we could share a beer.

since you are not (where are you - maybe asking is none of my business? - fogged over a few beers, think you may be an Aussie)

Australian, but not much keen on beer, though.

It only makes sense that during some periods we are especially active and outgoing and at other times will be relative dormant and internally focused (which is what we do when we're sick too). Do and regroup, do and regroup. Dat's life.

Greta wrote: ↑Sun Nov 25, 2018 3:20 am

gaffo wrote: ↑Sun Nov 25, 2018 2:45 am

Greta wrote: ↑Sun Nov 18, 2018 4:21 am
Those who need to know are clearly not happy. You don't question existence when you are happy with it. In that case life's purpose feels self-evident - a gift in which we can revel. When life sucks, one might reasonably wonder if there's a point to the suffering.

wise post concur Madam! - if you were here with me, we could share a beer.

since you are not (where are you - maybe asking is none of my business? - fogged over a few beers, think you may be an Aussie)

Australian, but not much keen on beer, though.

It only makes sense that during some periods we are especially active and outgoing and at other times will be relative dormant and internally focused (which is what we do when we're sick too). Do and regroup, do and regroup. Dat's life.

Aussie, my mem survered me for once. thanks for reply.

I'd love to visit your Nation some day, learn of it (70's PM scandel - "f" something (mem poor so forget his name - removed by the "governor general" - to great scandel most Aussies thinking they were independent from the "Crown" (free Nation - not an English Colony). Canadians/NZ had/have the same "gray independence" - which America lost the worry of via a couple of wars.

I know somewhat about you folks - having a morbid like for serial killers and copying the TV series (Australia Investigation) - a fe yrs ago via YT, and having the bluray of "Snowtown" - Bodies in the barrel.

aussis and americans share the "wild west" culture.

for both the good and bad of.

thanks for reply Greta, must be what? 5 AM over there?

wow, again thanks for reply even though you should be asleep.

gave more thought over timezones.

10 AM or so via Sydney?

8 AM per Pirth

and all inbetween...............

Greta wrote: ↑Sun Nov 25, 2018 3:20 am

gaffo wrote: ↑Sun Nov 25, 2018 2:45 am

Greta wrote: ↑Sun Nov 18, 2018 4:21 am
Those who need to know are clearly not happy. You don't question existence when you are happy with it. In that case life's purpose feels self-evident - a gift in which we can revel. When life sucks, one might reasonably wonder if there's a point to the suffering.

wise post concur Madam! - if you were here with me, we could share a beer.

since you are not (where are you - maybe asking is none of my business? - fogged over a few beers, think you may be an Aussie)

Australian, but not much keen on beer, though.

It only makes sense that during some periods we are especially active and outgoing and at other times will be relative dormant and internally focused (which is what we do when we're sick too). Do and regroup, do and regroup. Dat's life.

whats going on about the "Clarmont murders"????? rem veiwng the old 2009? vid about the mystery and about the last video of "person of interest" in the vid.

then 1.5 yrs ago hear there was a "hit" via a brother's arrest for DUI (his DNA as a close match to the a Clarmont DNA rape kit)

so what is happening with the brother? (the perp)?....not kept up with it, and being american, not main news over here.

the creep get a fair trial and then sent to jail for life?

welcome update.

gaffo wrote: ↑Sun Nov 25, 2018 3:30 am

Greta wrote: ↑Sun Nov 25, 2018 3:20 am

gaffo wrote: ↑Sun Nov 25, 2018 2:45 am

wise post concur Madam! - if you were here with me, we could share a beer.

since you are not (where are you - maybe asking is none of my business? - fogged over a few beers, think you may be an Aussie)

Australian, but not much keen on beer, though.

It only makes sense that during some periods we are especially active and outgoing and at other times will be relative dormant and internally focused (which is what we do when we're sick too). Do and regroup, do and regroup. Dat's life.

Aussie, my mem survered me for once. thanks for reply.

I'd love to visit your Nation some day, learn of it (70's PM scandel - "f" something (mem poor so forget his name - removed by the "governor general" - to great scandel most Aussies thinking they were independent from the "Crown" (free Nation - not an English Colony). Canadians/NZ had/have the same "gray independence" - which America lost the worry of via a couple of wars.

I know somewhat about you folks - having a morbid like for serial killers and copying the TV series (Australia Investigation) - a fe yrs ago via YT, and having the bluray of "Snowtown" - Bodies in the barrel.

aussis and americans share the "wild west" culture.

for both the good and bad of.

The best thing about Australia is we're a long way from most other countries. In some way's we're good, in others we're the arsehole of the world.

I have a spider web in my back doorway. It looks like it might be a male redback (which have dangerous venom) but it's clearly making a living, so if I kill it then other insects will get in. That's basically Australia in a nutshell

It might be male means it might be female.