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Re: God: What is your opinion or belief?

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 10:50 pm
by Obvious Leo
Gustav Bjornstrand wrote:PS: The bloody obvious is less obvious than seems. It becomes a question of inner tuning though.
Very perceptive, Gustav, did you think of this all by yourself?

Humans have a remarkable capacity to outsmart themselves and see mysteries where no mysteries exist. The philosopher of the bloody obvious assumes that reality is exactly what it appears to be but this doesn't mean that he can allow himself any complacency with respect to his understanding of it. His entire comprehension of the world around him must first be filtered through the prism of his own consciousness, a treacherous cesspit of half-baked ideas, idle fantasies and common or garden misinformation. The default mindset of such a person is continuous doubt. Separating the wheat from the chaff is the work of a lifetime but the true connoisseur of the bloody obvious holds fast to one ultimate talisman as the beacon of truth.

If it sounds like bullshit it probably is.

Re: God: What is your opinion or belief?

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 11:38 pm
by Gustav Bjornstrand
One meshuggener at a time, Obvious, one at a time, but one-by-meshuggener-one!
Obvious wrote:Humans have a remarkable capacity to outsmart themselves and see mysteries where no mysteries exist. The philosopher of the bloody obvious assumes that reality is exactly what it appears to be but this doesn't mean that he can allow himself any complacency with respect to his understanding of it. His entire comprehension of the world around him must first be filtered through the prism of his own consciousness, a treacherous cesspit of half-baked ideas, idle fantasies and common or garden misinformation. The default mindset of such a person is continuous doubt. Separating the wheat from the chaff is the work of a lifetime but the true connoisseur of the bloody obvious holds fast to one ultimate talisman as the beacon of truth.
I suggest this is an air-filled paragraph. Of the sort that Hobbles takes issue with. You are literally blowing out some hot air and with it some bits of breakfast.

I call to you're attention this remarkable paragraph written by a doppelgänger no doubt:
The indigenous Australian aborigines had a very sophisticated philosophy known as the Dreamtime, which focused on visual, symbolic and generally non-representational art as well as dance and the oral tradition. To the first Australians human beings were story-tellers who had to find the meaning of their own existence in the stories that they told. These stories also had to tell them how to live in a harsh and unforgiving landscape and the fact that they did so successfully for almost 60,000 years meant that these were very very good stories. These were not childish stories of gods to worship as we would understand the practice and there was certainly no myth of immortality. The stories were all about the ever-changing tides of natural events which governed their daily lives and how they should adapt to them in order to survive. Nature was not to be tamed but to be comprehended, so even in our modern era we have much to learn from these primitive folk. However the most profound thing that we can learn from these remarkable people lies in the way they defined the meaning of life itself. To the Australian aborigine the meaning of life could only be defined in terms of the journey and never in terms of the destination. The simple beauty and nuance of this perspective never fails to move me. When the Europeans invaded this continent they judged these people as sub-human and systematically set about the task of slaughtering nearly all of them. They did this in god's name.
To be precise, we'd have to say that 'philosophers', of the sort you define, are extremely recent arrivals (in comparison to the 60,000 years you reference). I also think that we need to say that we really have no good reason to trust any philosophy, or philosopher, since according to our own definitions such 'merely' philosophers erect mental systems, within a mental space, and convey ideas back and fourth between mental structures. The work of philosophers, and philosophy, can be and often is abstract, removed from 'life' and reality. Can it be compared to the total-life-picture of the Aborigines? I don't think so. Not to say that is bad. It just is though. It has to be taken into consideration when one talks of such things.

On the other hand - and to focus on your own example - we have references to people who carve out for themselves 'visual, symbolic, and non-representational' (or representational) art and dance which expresses and articulates a way and means to relate to Reality. It is hard to label it, isn't it? It is strange, magnificent, impenetrable, majestic in its own special way, would not you say?

Would you agree with me that this is a very different thing than, say, the work of a typical European philosopher? those we might name? In my view we'd be forced I think to say it is. One is an idea-system, constructed in abstract words, the other a way of life in which words are not relevant. But something else is. What? How would you, as Aussie wanker, as Marmite stuffed philosophical crêpe suzette, how would you speak about that? But more important What is your experience in this area? Because that is where the rubber hits the road, no?

So, if we 'humans have a remarkable capacity to outsmart themselves and see mysteries where no mysteries exist', why is it that you value the experience/idea of these folks? Hmmmm? Are you saying that to an Aboriginal there were or there are no 'mysteries'? Of that sort that their boy-children are initiated in?

Are you saying that the stories and representations are not expressions of the understanding of mysteries of life? of the reality in which they live? which is their matrix, their sole and unique existence-point? their very platform? And is that real or is it unreal, my precious pontificator?

I think that at least in some large sense, your privileged 'philosophy' runs up against a big problem when it confronts a total existential-view-platform, and I also suggest that it really does not quite know what to do when this occurs.

So when I focus on 'existence existing' and allude to a mystery difficult to fathom, I can sincerely say that I am speaking of something above and outside of your privileged and specific philosophical/language platform. I refer to something that is not like a simple sign, like a simple written indicator, but something that requires an entering into. I would compare it to the sort of mystery, or fact of experience if you wish, that is referred to as Dreamtime. Other terms could be used, and other cultures have different ways to speak about it, so don't get hung up in the word.

This is a good area for you to roll around in your extraordinary contradictions! and lose few fleas in the process.

And for Heaven's sake man, wipe your chin!

Re: God: What is your opinion or belief?

Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 12:58 am
by raw_thought
I agree that the obvious is not obvious. Words have a purpose but are meaningless. See symbol grounding problem, Wittgenstein, Quines indeterminicy of translation, the inadequacy of the correspondence theory of truth.
When words are all meaningless nothing is obvious.

Re: God: What is your opinion or belief?

Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 10:46 am
by Hobbes' Choice
raw_thought wrote:I agree that the obvious is not obvious. Words have a purpose but are meaningless. See symbol grounding problem, Wittgenstein, Quines indeterminicy of translation, the inadequacy of the correspondence theory of truth.
When words are all meaningless nothing is obvious.
No words cannot have a purpose as they are mute and have no intention. They do have meaning however. But this is coded within the minds of each of us. If they have a purpose then that is a human purpose in the intention of the subject. Clearly the purpose of each of us can never exactly match that of another, and words can carry connotations unknown to your interlocutor. However, there are moments we call "agreement" when the purposeful use of words we use share a meaning with others. We can even agree objective criteria about those words, to better communicate our understanding of the world in general and of the words in particular.

But to say words are meaningless is not only false; it is self referentially contradictory.

Re: God: What is your opinion or belief?

Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 12:00 pm
by raw_thought
Labels have a purpose. For example, if I put "
&2#?€" on 12 things, I could then tell someone to collect everything with a "&2#?€" on it. However "&2#?€" is meaningless because it does not tell me anything about the object.

Re: God: What is your opinion or belief?

Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 12:02 pm
by raw_thought
Yes, symbols are not intrinsically purposeful, we create their purpose.

Re: God: What is your opinion or belief?

Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 12:16 pm
by raw_thought
I gave other proofs that words are meaningless ( correspondence theory of truth is inadequate, quines indeterminacy of translation,Wittgenstein *). However, lets just look at the symbol grounding problem. What is a tooth pick? Wood. What is wood? Cellulose fibers...ad infinitum. If the definitions terminate then the last definition is meaningless, which means that the penultimate definition is meaningless.... Which means that "tooth pick" is meaningless. If the chain of definitions is infinite, "tooth pick" is meaningless. If I explain that the earth is stable because it rests on an elephant and that elephant on an elephant.... I have not explained why they are elephants and not lets say turtles.
* Another proof is to replace "forms" with "concepts" in Plato's third man argument.

Re: God: What is your opinion or belief?

Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 12:22 pm
by raw_thought
Well OK, you want precision."&2#?€" tells you that you should pick that object up (purpose). However, it does not tell you anything about what the object is.

Re: God: What is your opinion or belief?

Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 12:33 pm
by raw_thought
Spirituality is about meaning. Religion is about purpose.
I am currently exploring alternative ways of knowing. In particular mysticism. Mysticism is the direct perception of reality without the intermediary of words,symbols, icons. Most people get mysticism confused with the occult. Mysticism is not about propositions (such as, chant this and this will happen or even the proposition, there is a God. God is ineffable )

Re: God: What is your opinion or belief?

Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 12:38 pm
by raw_thought
Briefly put, everything is ineffable!!! Everything is a miracle! There is a great song, "Holy Now". I will post a link when I get off my tablet.

Re: God: What is your opinion or belief?

Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 12:44 pm
by raw_thought
Yes, all those proofs were in words. As Wittgenstein said his purpose will be achieved when one realizes that everything he said was meaningless. His words are a ladder that once one climbs it is thrown away.
The muses said that Socrates was the wisest man. Socrates tried to define words. (What is X). However, he never arrived at a definition. Examples are not definitions. He then was the most wise because he was the only one that knew that he knew nothing.

Re: God: What is your opinion or belief?

Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 1:07 pm
by Hobbes' Choice
raw_thought wrote:Labels have a purpose. For example, if I put "
&2#?€" on 12 things, I could then tell someone to collect everything with a "&2#?€" on it. However "&2#?€" is meaningless because it does not tell me anything about the object.
That is YOUR purpose in using the label. The label can have no purpose itself.

Re: God: What is your opinion or belief?

Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 1:08 pm
by Hobbes' Choice
raw_thought wrote:Yes, symbols are not intrinsically purposeful, we create their purpose.
Which negates your last post.
Maybe you would do well to try to use ONE post to answer then you would not offer contradictions.

[img]Well%20OK,%20you%20want%20precision."&2#?€"%20tells%20you%20that%20you%20should%20pick%20that%20object%20up%20(purpose).%20However,%20it%20does%20not%20tell%20you%20anything%20about%20what%20the%20object%20is.[/img]

It tells you that it is one of 12 objects to be recovered. You have not only created meaning, you have created your pupose in the use of that label

Re: God: What is your opinion or belief?

Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 6:08 pm
by raw_thought
Here is that “Holy Now “song.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiypaURysz4
“Supposing I teach someone the use of the word "yellow" by repeatedly pointing to a yellow patch and pronouncing the word. On another occasion I make him apply what he has learnt by giving him the order, "choose a yellow ball out of this bag". What was it that happened when he obeyed my order? I say "possibly just this: he heard my words and took a yellow ball from the bag". Now you may be inclined to think that this couldn't possibly have been all; and the kind of the thing that you would suggest is that he imagined something yellow when he understood the order, and then chose a ball according to his image. To see that this is not necessary remember that I could have given him the order, "Imagine a yellow patch". Would you still be inclined to assume that he first imagines a yellow patch, just understanding my order, and then imagines a yellow patch to match the first?”
Wittgenstein
FROM
http://www.geocities.jp/mickindex/wittg ... ue_en.html
Think of the yellow patch as the concept. You will see that it is unnecessary to identify the yellow patch.
……………………….
“Not how the world is, is the mystical, but that it is.”
Wittegenstein

Re: God: What is your opinion or belief?

Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 6:09 pm
by raw_thought
A hammer has a purpose, to nail boards together. Yes, we give it that purpose. As I said , the purpose is not intrinsic http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/intrinsic . Words are not intrinsically purposeful. They are arbitrary conventions invented by humans. There is no resemblance between the words "pick that up" and the act of picking it up."