Marriage For Everyone!

[Dalek Prime]

did you know that 78.6% of all statistics are actually made up bullshit?

I'm calling bullshit on your numbers lol! Just kidding, Kayla.

[The Inglorious One]

Of course, you could always just kill the unwanted babies.

accidental pregnancies, and hence unwanted babies, are extremely rare among gays and lesbians

obviously no one filled you in

Exactly, so what the hell does "gays" getting together have to do with marriage? Marriage evolved as a way to prevent competition for mates and progeny from turning violent and causing unrest. It is a way reign-in the consequences of lust, not to sanction it.

[Hobbes' Choice]

Well..yes...most Christians I know think sex before marriage is wrong. They don't where you're from?

My last girlfriend before my current one was the last "admittedly" Christian person I've met. We were fuck-buddies.

Most people in the UK write on census forms "Church of England" - so are nominally Christian. But I do not know ONE SINGLE PERSON who thinks you should not have sex before marriage. Such a sentiment might have been common before 1967-ish, but seriously no one I know expresses such a thing.

On the contrary, most people I know would consider that a big big mistake. To marry a person you've not had sex with, or to marry without any sexual experience would be thought disastrous; insane.

[Hobbes' Choice]

*63 percent of youth suicides are from fatherless homes (U.S. Dept. Of Health/Census) -- five times the average.
*90 percent of all homeless and runaway children are from fatherless homes -- 32 times the average.
*85 percent of all children who show behavior disorders come from fatherless homes -- 20 times the average. (Center for Disease Control)
*80 percent of rapists with anger problems come from fatherless homes -- 14 times the average. (Justice and Behavior, Vol 14, p. 403-26)
*71 percent of all high school dropouts come from fatherless homes -- Nine times the average. (National Principals Association Report)
*75 percent of all adolescent patients in chemical abuse centers come from fatherless homes -- 10 times the average. (Rainbows for All God's Children)
*70 percent of youths in state-operated institutions come from fatherless homes -- 9 times the average. (U.S. Dept. of Justice, Sept. 1988)
*85 percent of all youths in prison come from fatherless homes -- 20 times the average. (Fulton Co. Dept. of Correction)

Of course, you could always just kill the unwanted babies.

And YOU are against marriage.
You are one confusion after another.

BTW. These stats are not directly relevant to the issue of sex before marriage. You might also want to consider "separation' and the 50% divorce rate.

[vegetariantaxidermy]

How is it 'wrong'? And please don't say 'because it says so in the bible'. I mean a rational, reasonable reason.
So anyone who doesn't get married has to stay abstinent for their entire life? We all know what happens when *that's* a requirement.
What an irrational crock of shit religion is.

You're not very bright, are you? Evolution, using religion a the vehicle, worked out a solution to a problem: sex leads to children and children without the support of a nuclear family leads to social unrest. Here are some statistics:

*63 percent of youth suicides are from fatherless homes (U.S. Dept. Of Health/Census) -- five times the average.
*90 percent of all homeless and runaway children are from fatherless homes -- 32 times the average.
*85 percent of all children who show behavior disorders come from fatherless homes -- 20 times the average. (Center for Disease Control)
*80 percent of rapists with anger problems come from fatherless homes -- 14 times the average. (Justice and Behavior, Vol 14, p. 403-26)
*71 percent of all high school dropouts come from fatherless homes -- Nine times the average. (National Principals Association Report)
*75 percent of all adolescent patients in chemical abuse centers come from fatherless homes -- 10 times the average. (Rainbows for All God's Children)
*70 percent of youths in state-operated institutions come from fatherless homes -- 9 times the average. (U.S. Dept. of Justice, Sept. 1988)
*85 percent of all youths in prison come from fatherless homes -- 20 times the average. (Fulton Co. Dept. of Correction)

Of course, you could always just kill the unwanted babies.

You forgot: 100 per cent of mothers are female and 100 per cent of fathers are male.
Which xtian site did you get your statistics from?

[Hobbes' Choice]

How is it 'wrong'? And please don't say 'because it says so in the bible'. I mean a rational, reasonable reason.
So anyone who doesn't get married has to stay abstinent for their entire life? We all know what happens when *that's* a requirement.
What an irrational crock of shit religion is.

You're not very bright, are you? Evolution, using religion a the vehicle, worked out a solution to a problem: sex leads to children and children without the support of a nuclear family leads to social unrest. Here are some statistics:

*63 percent of youth suicides are from fatherless homes (U.S. Dept. Of Health/Census) -- five times the average.
*90 percent of all homeless and runaway children are from fatherless homes -- 32 times the average.
*85 percent of all children who show behavior disorders come from fatherless homes -- 20 times the average. (Center for Disease Control)
*80 percent of rapists with anger problems come from fatherless homes -- 14 times the average. (Justice and Behavior, Vol 14, p. 403-26)
*71 percent of all high school dropouts come from fatherless homes -- Nine times the average. (National Principals Association Report)
*75 percent of all adolescent patients in chemical abuse centers come from fatherless homes -- 10 times the average. (Rainbows for All God's Children)
*70 percent of youths in state-operated institutions come from fatherless homes -- 9 times the average. (U.S. Dept. of Justice, Sept. 1988)
*85 percent of all youths in prison come from fatherless homes -- 20 times the average. (Fulton Co. Dept. of Correction)

Of course, you could always just kill the unwanted babies.

You forgot: 100 per cent of mothers are female and 100 per cent of fathers are male.
Which xtian site did you get your statistics from?

Worse than that - without the source these number are completely without context, and assume a false cause and effect. a claim that a kid goes feral in not the result of a lack of marriage. But the failure of the marriage and the child going feral might have deeper, shared cause. Right wing policy that cuts benefits and social programs can lead to couples breaking up. The same people that criticise the rise in crime are often the section of society that is causing it through greed.

You can also take these numbers and show how poverty destroys relationships.

[The Inglorious One]

Oh, geez. No wonder civilization is on the decline. This is a philosophy forum and the people here would get lost in a tube-like maze that's open at both ends and the exits clearly marked.

[artisticsolution]

Well..yes...most Christians I know think sex before marriage is wrong. They don't where you're from?

most christians i know will, if pressed, admit to having sex before marriage

in practice, the more hard-core christians will not have sex until they decided, at least in principle, that they want to get married

Yes, some have sex before marriage, but most will tell you it was wrong of them. And the ones who are able to tame their loins for the moment....seem to jump into marriage too quickly. I think because they are so horny they will agree to anything!

I don't know if they are aware of how it appears. I might be being cynical...but from talking to my friends who have done this, it seems theirs was not a match made in heaven as they would have liked to believe.

[Hobbes' Choice]

Oh, geez. No wonder civilization is on the decline. This is a philosophy forum and the people here would get lost in a tube-like maze that's open at both ends and the exits clearly marked.

If you were as half as smart as you think you are you'd still be half as smart as the least smart person on the Forum.

[The Inglorious One]

Oh, geez. No wonder civilization is on the decline. This is a philosophy forum and the people here would get lost in a tube-like maze that's open at both ends and the exits clearly marked.

If you were as half as smart as you think you are you'd still be half as smart as the least smart person on the Forum.

So....what are your basic premises?

Oh, that's right. You don't have any, or at least none you want to talk about.

[Kayla]

Exactly, so what the hell does "gays" getting together have to do with marriage? Marriage evolved as a way to prevent competition for mates and progeny from turning violent and causing unrest. It is a way reign-in the consequences of lust, not to sanction it.

you brought up accidental pregnancies and single parent families as an argument against same-sex marriage, not me

[Kayla]

Yes, some have sex before marriage, but most will tell you it was wrong of them.

i think the prevailing view among serious christians - but not so christian as to be insane - is that what god meant was 'no screwing around with complete strangers, even if they are hot and you are using a condom' - not 'wait for 10 years or so from the time you are physically ready for sex to the time you are socially ready for marriage in our highly unnatural society'

dont know how many of them would put it exactly this way, but from waht i can tell this is more or less what a lot of christians (and i mean more than just nominal christians) believe

basically the way i was brought up - in a southern baptist home - is "do not have sex with someone until you know them well enough to enjoy their company for reasons other than sex". this strikes me as a very reasonable way of looking at things

[The Inglorious One]

Exactly, so what the hell does "gays" getting together have to do with marriage? Marriage evolved as a way to prevent competition for mates and progeny from turning violent and causing unrest. It is a way reign-in the consequences of lust, not to sanction it.

you brought up accidental pregnancies and single parent families as an argument against same-sex marriage, not me

Answer the question: What the hell do “gays” have to do with the evolution of marriage as we have it today and why should the same benefits apply to them? Because they protest? So what if they do? Because it's only fair? That's an emotional response, not a rational answer.

Does that make me a bigot or a “homophobe”? Maybe it does, but both accusations are irrelevant to the argument.

Some have argued for a REAL rational argument against SSM. Fine, but it cuts both ways.

[Kayla]

my wife - or girlfriend if you prefer - we know quite a few people who know about our relationship and yet seem to be unable to use the word 'wife' - and i live together, have a whole lot of finances in common and adopted a child

if you are going to take the view that we should not have the same treatment under the law as a hetero married couple, the burden on proof should be on you, not me - you will have to explain what the relevant difference is between our relationship - or a relationship that would exist if one of us were a guy

[The Inglorious One]

my wife - or girlfriend if you prefer - we know quite a few people who know about our relationship and yet seem to be unable to use the word 'wife' - and i live together, have a whole lot of finances in common and adopted a child

if you are going to take the view that we should not have the same treatment under the law as a hetero married couple, the burden on proof should be on you, not me - you will have to explain what the relevant difference is between our relationship - or a relationship that would exist if one of us were a guy

Considering the historical aspect of it, the onus is really on you, but I provided it anyway. The fact that you do not accept it is okay by me, but you also have to make an argument.