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Re: Christianity
Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2025 8:22 pm
by Belinda
Martin Peter Clarke wrote: ↑Thu Aug 14, 2025 1:15 pm
Belinda wrote: ↑Thu Aug 14, 2025 10:32 am
Martin Peter Clarke wrote: ↑Thu Aug 14, 2025 10:24 am
the action of propitiating or appeasing a god, spirit, or person:
"he lifted his hands in propitiation"
atonement, especially that of Jesus Christ.
Not something, anything, Love needs to do.
Who "lifted his hands in propitiation"? i never heard of such a person. Propitiation always involved some sort of sacrifice, otherwise the gods would not take you seriously.
I am afraid that despite my very best effort I have not been able to explain to you the difference between propitiation and atonement. So I will leave it there.
Ask Copilot to help you.
Pagan , or polytheistic, propitiation is for controlling natural forces, and is usually called superstition now.
Re: Christianity
Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2025 10:27 pm
by Martin Peter Clarke
Belinda wrote: ↑Thu Aug 14, 2025 8:22 pm
Martin Peter Clarke wrote: ↑Thu Aug 14, 2025 1:15 pm
Belinda wrote: ↑Thu Aug 14, 2025 10:32 am
Who "lifted his hands in propitiation"? i never heard of such a person. Propitiation always involved some sort of sacrifice, otherwise the gods would not take you seriously.
I am afraid that despite my very best effort I have not been able to explain to you the difference between propitiation and atonement. So I will leave it there.
Ask Copilot to help you.
Pagan , or polytheistic, propitiation is for controlling natural forces, and is usually called superstition now.
Is that what it said?
Re: Christianity
Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2025 11:20 pm
by Martin Peter Clarke
IC is conspicuous by his absence. He has nothing to counter my new intellectually overwhelming synthesis obviously. Not that I'd ever read it directly of course. I'm sure if he does and it's above the level of deranged wooden literalist Dembski-Meyer-Ham YEC FOR JESUS! dross, which it can't be, someone would quote it. Let alone the dizzy intellectual depths of Craig-Platinga. Who still overlap with the YFJ crowd.
Re: Christianity
Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2025 12:16 am
by Alexis Jacobi
Why would he argue with you? Your mind is mush. You have no position and no objective that I can discern. You blather.
Just pointing out (what seems) obvious.
Re: Christianity
Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2025 12:25 am
by Martin Peter Clarke
Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Fri Aug 15, 2025 12:16 am
Why would he argue with you? Your mind is mush. You have no position and no objective that I can discern. You blather.
Just pointing out (what seems) obvious.
Noted. That reflects back entirely on you. Did the bipolar wind change?
Re: Christianity
Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2025 12:28 am
by Alexis Jacobi
Explain: What reflects back on me?
Re: Christianity
Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2025 2:03 am
by Immanuel Can
Martin Peter Clarke wrote: ↑Thu Aug 14, 2025 11:20 pm
IC is conspicuous by his absence. He has nothing to counter my new intellectually overwhelming synthesis obviously.
Did I miss something?
The conversation got too boring for me, actually. If you've got something interesting and original to say, say it...and I'll check back, and if it's something sensible, and something I haven't seen debunked already, I'll entertain it.
But what's the point of a site where people who don't know anything about Christianity go on endless about how there's nothing to know about Christianity? It seems kind of futile; and that's all this thread has been, lately.
Still, if you've got something fresh, I'll hear it.
Re: Christianity
Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2025 3:08 am
by Eodnhoj7
If the metaphysics of reality is grounded in sacrifice, negation in other terms, by which a synthesis is achieved then it is most likely the case that Christianity is very close to the truth:
1. Jesus is the synthesis of God and man.
2. The sacrificial nature of reality corroborates with a self-sacrificial moral code.
3. Jesus was sinless and yet bore the sin of man...sin being the judgements and distinctions by which reality is warped where some aspect of reality is idolized by the act of judging. The sinlessness of God bearing all sin is a perfect synthesis.
4. The death of God shows God is not subject to pure power, for if God was subject to pure power then there would be a God beyond God. By God abandoning God God is no longer subject to God.
Re: Christianity
Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2025 3:39 am
by Alexis Jacobi
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Aug 15, 2025 2:03 am
The conversation got too boring for me, actually.
Horseshit.
Re: Christianity
Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2025 8:12 am
by Martin Peter Clarke
Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Fri Aug 15, 2025 12:28 am
Explain: What reflects back on me?
Your projection. You're a great disappointment Alexis. And I'm not disappointed in myself. Only the poets, Wordsworth, Hopkins, Dostoevsky, Weil, Tennyson have understood. Not even Nietzsche or any atheist, before or since to the 'new', ever realised that God is not love. There is no greater critique of Christianity. And your response? Vacuous. Pathetic. Like IC's. Get a room.
Re: Christianity
Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2025 8:19 am
by Martin Peter Clarke
Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 15, 2025 3:08 am
If the metaphysics of reality is grounded in sacrifice, negation in other terms, by which a synthesis is achieved then it is most likely the case that Christianity is very close to the truth:
1. Jesus is the synthesis of God and man.
2. The sacrificial nature of reality corroborates with a self-sacrificial moral code.
3. Jesus was sinless and yet bore the sin of man...sin being the judgements and distinctions by which reality is warped where some aspect of reality is idolized by the act of judging. The sinlessness of God bearing all sin is a perfect synthesis.
4. The death of God shows God is not subject to pure power, for if God was subject to pure power then there would be a God beyond God. By God abandoning God God is no longer subject to God.
A thoughtful response John. Premissed on a
BIG if, which you have expressed elsewhere. They don't get bigger. The dialectical work for that is yet to be impossibly done. As for any unwarranted, unjustified untrue belief.
Re: Christianity
Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2025 8:20 am
by Belinda
Martin Peter Clarke wrote: ↑Thu Aug 14, 2025 10:27 pm
Belinda wrote: ↑Thu Aug 14, 2025 8:22 pm
Pagan , or polytheistic, propitiation is for controlling natural forces, and is usually called superstition now.
Is that what it said?
I tried to access the AI brand you recommended but I did not know how to it so I did ask ChatGPT. I guess all respectable AI brands are well ethically trained. My reply to you above, though not a quote, is what I selected from Chat to try to make my point that the attitude of propitiation is more superstitious than true. Science and technology have removed most of the pagan need for propitiating gods.
By "true" I mean it's good for people to set aside some time to recognising that we can be better people than we are, and our remorse and even our anger and fear , is atonement or at least the beginning of atonement. Metaphorically Christ is crucified every minute in Gaza, Ukraine, Sudan, USA, and UK.
The above is not a summary from Chat which was closer to what you have been saying Chat informs me and does not form my opinions .
Re: Christianity
Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2025 8:34 am
by Belinda
Martin Peter Clarke wrote: ↑Fri Aug 15, 2025 8:12 am
Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Fri Aug 15, 2025 12:28 am
Explain: What reflects back on me?
Your projection. You're a great disappointment Alexis. And I'm not disappointed in myself. Only the poets, Wordsworth, Hopkins, Dostoevsky, Weil, Tennyson have understood. Not even Nietzsche or any atheist, before or since to the 'new', ever realised that God is not love. There is no greater critique of Christianity. And your response? Vacuous. Pathetic. Like IC's. Get a room.
There is no such thing as a deity that fits everyone. Your God, Alexis' God, and my God are what we each most revere and value :-
parenthood, the natural environment, some religious cult and its leader, native land, a father figure called God, the Holy Mother figure, the state, the dear leader, humanity, worldly success, self, duty.
Re: Christianity
Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2025 8:48 am
by Martin Peter Clarke
Belinda wrote: ↑Fri Aug 15, 2025 8:20 am
Martin Peter Clarke wrote: ↑Thu Aug 14, 2025 10:27 pm
Belinda wrote: ↑Thu Aug 14, 2025 8:22 pm
Pagan , or polytheistic, propitiation is for controlling natural forces, and is usually called superstition now.
Is that what it said?
I tried to access the AI brand you recommended but I did not know how to it so I did ask ChatGPT. I guess all respectable AI brands are well ethically trained. My reply to you above, though not a quote, is what I selected from Chat to try to make my point that the attitude of propitiation is more superstitious than true. Science and technology have removed most of the pagan need for propitiating gods.
By "true" I mean it's good for people to set aside some time to recognising that we can be better people than we are, and our remorse and even our anger and fear , is atonement or at least the beginning of atonement. Metaphorically Christ is crucified every minute in Gaza, Ukraine, Sudan, USA, and UK.
The above is not a summary from Chat which was closer to what you have been saying Chat informs me and does not form my opinions .
It's a non-pagan, fundamentally Abrahamic need too. It's explicit in Christianity. Which is why its God is Loveless. It's universal throughout religion; “Religion is man's attempt to communicate with the weather”, attributed to Thomas Huxley, and you even bring it in to the psychology of repentance, which is fine. But to make it metaphoric of evil is empty. It is tainted with child victims blaming themselves for their parents' evil. Explicit in Christianity, in, from Christ himself, again.
Re: Christianity
Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2025 9:16 am
by Belinda
Martin Peter Clarke wrote: ↑Fri Aug 15, 2025 8:48 am
Belinda wrote: ↑Fri Aug 15, 2025 8:20 am
I tried to access the AI brand you recommended but I did not know how to it so I did ask ChatGPT. I guess all respectable AI brands are well ethically trained. My reply to you above, though not a quote, is what I selected from Chat to try to make my point that the attitude of propitiation is more superstitious than true. Science and technology have removed most of the pagan need for propitiating gods.
By "true" I mean it's good for people to set aside some time to recognising that we can be better people than we are, and our remorse and even our anger and fear , is atonement or at least the beginning of atonement. Metaphorically Christ is crucified every minute in Gaza, Ukraine, Sudan, USA, and UK.
The above is not a summary from Chat which was closer to what you have been saying Chat informs me and does not form my opinions .
It's a non-pagan, fundamentally Abrahamic need too. It's explicit in Christianity. Which is why its God is Loveless. It's universal throughout religion; “Religion is man's attempt to communicate with the weather”, attributed to Thomas Huxley, and you even bring it in to the psychology of repentance, which is fine. But to make it metaphoric of evil is empty. It is tainted with child victims blaming themselves for their parents' evil. Explicit in Christianity, in, from Christ himself, again.
Paganism is man's attempt to control natural forces. That is now largely a redundant attempt in our age of science and technology.
Self blame is a bad habit. Determinists don't self blame but are much more positive and take responsibility for personal self improvement. It's true that the Free Will doctrine is thoroughly bad and is obviously set in place for controlling the lower classes; Christianity is imbued with class rigidity. I wonder if there is positive correlation between believers and Conservatives.
I am not a Christian because I will not be told what to do by authorities I don't believe in or trust, and the more authoritarian a religion is the less I like it. Nevertheless I still love the mythical figure of Christ .