The Democrat Party Hates America

[Immanuel Can]

...the God of justice has effectively been thoroughly undermined....

Wait and see.

You're too impatient. Justice is promised. And it will come. You will find God quite capable of vindicating His justice, alright.

[Alexis Jacobi]

...the God of justice has effectively been thoroughly undermined....

Wait and see.

You're too impatient. Justice is promised. And it will come. You will find God quite capable of vindicating His justice, alright.

In my view it is far better for a man to arrive at the conscious, voluntary decision to act in life in the best possible way. And I am convinced that this sense of duty and responsibility can be taught to children. Teaching children what is the best and the right way is, of course, what the struggle is all about.

If a man chooses to do what is right and good because he has been made to believe that he will be tortured by God Almighty in an eternal hell-realm if he does not, I consider that man inferior to the man who has made the right choice because he is mature, aware, upstanding and capable.

You are a man deeply wedded to the former and really quite brutal metaphysical picture. I suppose that were it not for the threat of eternal hell that you would therefore be a very bad man. Or, do you imagine that you could honestly say that you'd be a very decent man even if the threat of annihilation were removed?

You see, you get yourself into a sort of box you cannot get out of.

I would say, as Romans 1 says, that every body knows God exists...but it's pretty clear that there are varied responses to that realization, and most of them are negative. A lot of people want to think of themselves as "spiritual," but they don't want to have to listen to God, or to accept life on His terms. They'd rather engineer their own kind of "spirituality," so as to preen themselves as noble and high-minded. But they don't want to bow.

I think you are not talking into consideration that many many Christians, and need I remind you that many Evangelical Christians, are horrible examples of upstanding, decent men. That is something to consider. Please, and if you will, provide an assessment of your influence on your peers on this forum over the decade+ that you have been here.

What I try to point out to you -- you will not listen and you will never listen -- is that your theology is skewed. It must be revised. Remodeled. Reconsidered. This is Christianity's fate!

But when I say this you must take it to mean that I am an anti-Christian (or that I am anti-Judaic), and thus I provide you with the foil you seek. So that you can launch into extensive color-coded New Testament quotes always shaded with the horrors of hell and eternal punishment.

But I am in no sense an opponent of either Christianity or Judaism if what is essential in them is extracted. This requires a rational person. And it requires a free man: a man capable of moral choice without the threat of eternal fire. If someone overtly and without discrimination rejects either Judaic or Christian contributions to Occidental culture -- the life we have and live -- I see them as fools.

Wait and see.

That is more or less my point. Justice is not a feature of this world as it is. But men who make the choice to live in better ways make all the difference.

[Immanuel Can]

...the God of justice has effectively been thoroughly undermined....

Wait and see.

You're too impatient. Justice is promised. And it will come. You will find God quite capable of vindicating His justice, alright.

In my view...

Your view, or my view, has nothing to do with justice. We're not our own judge. Maybe we all want to think we're more powerful than we are. But the truth is that we answer to a Higher Court.

I would say, as Romans 1 says, that every body knows God exists...but it's pretty clear that there are varied responses to that realization, and most of them are negative. A lot of people want to think of themselves as "spiritual," but they don't want to have to listen to God, or to accept life on His terms. They'd rather engineer their own kind of "spirituality," so as to preen themselves as noble and high-minded. But they don't want to bow.

I think you are not talking into consideration that many many Christians,

I was speaking of humans generally, and particularly, of those who appeal to their self-styled "spirituality" as if it meant something. Having a self-arranged "spirituality" makes even less sense than trying to make up one's own version of gravity.

Wait and see.

That is more or less my point. Justice is not a feature of this world as it is.

We do agree on that much. Hence, justice awaits.

But men who make the choice to live in better ways make all the difference.

To what?

[Belinda]

I think you are mistaken, that some people don't seek a relationship with God.

Well, both the Old and New Testaments repeat the axiom, "There is none who seeks after God," in reference to human nature. So what do you do with that?

I think nearly everyone does so although few describe their search in religious language.

I would say, as Romans 1 says, that every body knows God exists...but it's pretty clear that there are varied responses to that realization, and most of them are negative. A lot of people want to think of themselves as "spiritual," but they don't want to have to listen to God, or to accept life on His terms. They'd rather engineer their own kind of "spirituality," so as to preen themselves as noble and high-minded. But they don't want to bow.

And that's just not the terms on offer.

BTW, "Where were you when I laid the Earth's foundation" is utterly deterministic.

No, it's not. Not even close. God laid the foundations alright, but it was of a world wide open to human volition. Were it not so, it would be impossible for mankind to do anything else but good, since only good is what God wills. But mankind has the choice, and we see that every day.

The story of Job deserves a separate discussion .

Indeed it does. But I wasn't the one who raised it.

Human volition is free becauseit depends on the fulcrum of determinism. Human nature is not free because of a supernatural device called free will. Human freedom is a product of culture that enables us to venture beyond the biological, to control our responses to circumstances so that we can get the most desirable outcomes.

Supernatural free will is for social control. True, we need social control. However social control among rational and freely- assenting individuals is better than social control that is driven by superstitious fear of disobeying a powerful deity.

Social control among rational and freely-assenting individuals results from a culture that provides liberal education and a measure of common sense. In 2025 AD we don't generally seek a deity whose terms are irrational. Control of one's emotional reactions is rational.
Jesus himself is mostly Apollonian, and in this Jesus has progressed beyond the old emotionally reactive Jahweh.

[Immanuel Can]

Human volition is free becauseit depends on the fulcrum of determinism.

You don't know what determinism is, obviously: it means there is NO such thing as human volition. If determinism is true, then none of the following exist: responsibility, volition, personhood, rationality, morals, selfhood, choice and will, among other things. Determinism means that things are pre-set by prior forces, rather than the individual having any say or power to alter outcomes.

Human freedom is a product of culture...

No, freedom is not a "product of culture." It cannot be. Culture can be used to curtail freedom, but it cannot be employed to produce it. Freedom is a "negative," in that it means "absence of constraint." Culture constrains. No one is more free than the person who owes nothing, in fact, to culture, if such could exist.

Social control

Why would anybody want to be "controlled" at all? Control entails loss of freedom, not the exercise of it.

[Belinda]

Human volition is free becauseit depends on the fulcrum of determinism.

You don't know what determinism is, obviously: it means there is NO such thing as human volition. If determinism is true, then none of the following exist: responsibility, volition, personhood, rationality, morals, selfhood, choice and will, among other things. Determinism means that things are pre-set by prior forces, rather than the individual having any say or power to alter outcomes.

Human freedom is a product of culture...

No, freedom is not a "product of culture." It cannot be. Culture can be used to curtail freedom, but it cannot be employed to produce it. Freedom is a "negative," in that it means "absence of constraint." Culture constrains. No one is more free than the person who owes nothing, in fact, to culture, if such could exist.

Social control

Why would anybody want to be "controlled" at all? Control entails loss of freedom, not the exercise of it.

Circumstances caused me to be aware of and/or to act according to responsibility, volition, personhood, rationality, morals, selfhood, choice and will, among other things. Circumstances caused me to value personhood, responsibility, rationality, choice, and more, much more.

[Immanuel Can]

Circumstances caused me to be aware of and/or to act according to responsibility, volition, personhood, rationality, morals, selfhood, choice and will, among other things. Circumstances caused me to value personhood, responsibility, rationality, choice, and more, much more.

But Determinism says they were all delusions. You only thought you had these things, but you never did. You were just imagining them.

This is one easy way we can all tell that determinism is false; nobody lives as if it's true, especially its most ardent advocates.

[Belinda]

Human volition is free becauseit depends on the fulcrum of determinism.

You don't know what determinism is, obviously: it means there is NO such thing as human volition. If determinism is true, then none of the following exist: responsibility, volition, personhood, rationality, morals, selfhood, choice and will, among other things. Determinism means that things are pre-set by prior forces, rather than the individual having any say or power to alter outcomes.

Human freedom is a product of culture...

No, freedom is not a "product of culture." It cannot be. Culture can be used to curtail freedom, but it cannot be employed to produce it. Freedom is a "negative," in that it means "absence of constraint." Culture constrains. No one is more free than the person who owes nothing, in fact, to culture, if such could exist.

Social control

Why would anybody want to be "controlled" at all? Control entails loss of freedom, not the exercise of it.

Circumstances caused me to be aware of and/or to act according to responsibility, volition, personhood, rationality, morals, selfhood, choice and will, among other things. Circumstances caused me to value personhood, responsibility, rationality, choice, and more, much more.

You don't seem to me, in your persona as Immanuel Can, to be unduly emotionally uncontrolled, but if you say you are uninhibited so be it.

[Alexis Jacobi]

Your view, or my view, has nothing to do with justice. We're not our own judge. Maybe we all want to think we're more powerful than we are. But the truth is that we answer to a Higher Court.

Understood. And that “higher court” has been variously described in many different ways over a long historical period. I am not at all closed to the notion that we will likely face the consequences of what we have done, or not done, my objection is to the rigidity of your version of things.

And I think that we all are actually our own judge. When we come face-to-face with things we’ve done here and now (in meditation, reflection, self-examination) that is likely an intimation of something we will face sooner or later.

I was speaking of humans generally, and particularly, of those who appeal to their self-styled "spirituality" as if it meant something. Having a self-arranged "spirituality" makes even less sense than trying to make up one's own version of gravity.

Here you will find agreement from me. There was a time when it seems to me men generally took things — their moral lives — far more seriously. They ruminated over omissions that we hardly devote consideration to. Their thoughts on life and their sense of meaning, value and what had importance were far more acute.

I agree that superficial “spirituality” (like NewAge) is a deteriorated form of genuine moral-spiritual life.

And I agree that when given the opportunity people will avoid hard and demanding principles usually defined through rigorous religious sentiment.

AJ: But men who make the choice to live in better ways make all the difference.

IC: To what?

To the quality of life in all senses.

[Immanuel Can]

Your view, or my view, has nothing to do with justice. We're not our own judge. Maybe we all want to think we're more powerful than we are. But the truth is that we answer to a Higher Court.

Understood. And that “higher court” has been variously described in many different ways over a long historical period.

Again, it doesn't matter what people have imagined. Something will turn out to be true. And that will be all that matters, then.

I was speaking of humans generally, and particularly, of those who appeal to their self-styled "spirituality" as if it meant something. Having a self-arranged "spirituality" makes even less sense than trying to make up one's own version of gravity.

Here you will find agreement from me. There was a time when it seems to me men generally took things — their moral lives — far more seriously. They ruminated over omissions that we hardly devote consideration to. Their thoughts on life and their sense of meaning, value and what had importance were far more acute. I agree that superficial “spirituality” (like NewAge) is a deteriorated form of genuine moral-spiritual life.

I call it "buffet religiosity." It's like one of those meals where people wander down an aisle, scooping from various cases and bins to compose whatever it is they want for dinner -- there's plenty on offer, but usually, when they take their plate back to their seat, it's likely to be the sort of meal no skilled host or sensible restaurant would dare serve: a chicken leg, a slice of beef, three wontons, taco salad, some lime jell-o, curried egg, a chocolate cookie... And only the person who selected it could want it at all.

The things people put in buffet religiosity are like that: one helping of Catholicism, a scoop of Buddhism, a hunk of Gnostic mysticism, three pieces of something read in a self-help book, some astrology, and a big helping of narcissism, all sitting on the same 'plate' and making no sense together. And this is what people call "being spiritual."

[mickthinks]

...the God of justice has effectively been thoroughly undermined....

Wait and see.

Isn’t justice delayed just justice denied? Why would a just God make us wait?

[Immanuel Can]

...the God of justice has effectively been thoroughly undermined....

Wait and see.

Isn’t justice delayed just justice denied? Why would a just God make us wait?

Mercy. God would prefer as many as will to have opportunity to come to Him. As the Bible says,

"The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

But for those that it seems too long, the question simply becomes, just what do you expect to happen when justice comes: are you so confident that you will be on the right side of that? And what have you done about it? The interval is an opportunity for such an awakening.

[Walker]

...the God of justice has effectively been thoroughly undermined....

Wait and see.

Isn’t justice delayed just justice denied? Why would a just God make us wait?

Because, worrying about the future personal consequences of all your dastardly deeds is part of your well-deserved, due process of justice, and just as inevitable and natural as rain or sunshine, even for nihilists who compulsively wonder, what's next?

This is why those hateful democrat politicians who hate America always look either robotic, or haggard. They're living the dream, which for them is a fantasy of ideology laced through and through with corruption.

[Belinda]

Circumstances caused me to be aware of and/or to act according to responsibility, volition, personhood, rationality, morals, selfhood, choice and will, among other things. Circumstances caused me to value personhood, responsibility, rationality, choice, and more, much more.

But Determinism says they were all delusions. You only thought you had these things, but you never did. You were just imagining them.

This is one easy way we can all tell that determinism is false; nobody lives as if it's true, especially its most ardent advocates.

Don't be silly, I know what I myself think is true. Most people think events are preceded by causes!

[Belinda]

Circumstances caused me to be aware of and/or to act according to responsibility, volition, personhood, rationality, morals, selfhood, choice and will, among other things. Circumstances caused me to value personhood, responsibility, rationality, choice, and more, much more.

But Determinism says they were all delusions. You only thought you had these things, but you never did. You were just imagining them.

This is one easy way we can all tell that determinism is false; nobody lives as if it's true, especially its most ardent advocates.

Don't be silly, I know what I myself think .

Most people think events are preceded by causes!

Think, if you had never heard of The Bible and never had been taught to read it and make sense of it you would not have been able to quote from it.

Think, the invention of the printing press was a necessary cause of people's being able to read The |Bible for themselves.